Pregnancy during initiation
Here's an interesting yet controversial topic that has made its way to the goldendawnmeetingplace forum. Now, usually our controversial topics involve pelting other orders with watermelons and such, but this is an interesting turn in which people are actually arguing about something other than wars between rival GD orders
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IMO, I think the appropriateness of a pregnant woman taking initiations depends on the initiation, particularly if the initiation is not open source (i.e. the mother really doesn't know what exactly will happen.) There are certain initiations (or aspects of the initiation) that I think no pregnant woman should undergo, and I think initiators would be within their rights to refuse to perform the initiation.
There are some initiations that I've been through that might be fine for a pregnant woman, depending on how far along she is (and how well her pregnancy is going.) I definitely think there is a "window" during which certain initiations would be appropriate if it is the mother's will.
And another thing to consider--what about the Will of the other parent? It's not just the energy affecting the baby that should be considered. If I was an initiator being asked to initiate a pregnant woman, I would want to know that the other parent was aware of and ok with the potential risks involved before deciding if I would perform the ritual.
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If this were the case, using the same logic I would need my hypothetical husband's permission to be initiated--after all, being married our alembics would overlap to a certain extent, and my involvement with either the Golden Dawn or OTO would in turn affect him.
Just my perspective....
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To clarify: I wasn't saying or implying that I would require a permission slip from the other parent. Nor would I initiate contact with the other parent on my own. But I would be very concerned if the potential candidate had not, at the very least, discussed safety concerns with the child's other parent. I would want to talk to the potential candidate, discussing how healthy she has been during the pregnancy and any activity restrictions set/recommended by the OB or midwife. At this time, I would likely ask about discussions the potential candidate had with the child's other parent and inquire if the other parent had any questions for me. If so, I would endeavor to answer the questions without violating any of my oaths.
And of course, all of this is completely hypothetical, since I am not an initiator at this time. :)
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1) the woman in question is having a difficult pregnancy and her doctor has specifically told her to take it easy.
2) the initiation is question is physically taxing for whatever reason. Perhaps certain ways of performing the Adeptus Minor rite may qualify for this. I cannot speak for OTO initiations and if I could I would not comment on them here for this post isn't filtered to only OTO initiates--and I can only comment on published GD works.
Now, I know for a fact that the woman, if physically okay, should have zero issues with her or her unborn child undergoing any of the initiations for the GD up to and including Portal. Even depending on the 5=6 it could be okay.
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I think the physical safety issue is more than just whether or not the initiation is physically taxing. I have read about initiations in other systems that involve the candidate being wrestled to the ground by force. Clearly not a good plan for a pregnant woman, no matter the trimester. There are initiations I have been through which I think would be perfectly fine for a woman in the second trimester of a healthy pregnancy to undergo. I have been through initiations which I think have the potential to be physically dangerous to the physical health of the of the fetus, but I will not violate my oaths in order to describe them. I heartily agree with shimmeringjemmy's assessment of which OTO initiations would be safe for a woman with a healthy 2nd trimester pregnancy.
And in terms of physically taxing--that is incredibly subjective. What invigorates one pregnant woman would exhaust another. And what is a perfectly fine activity for an individual pregnant woman one day would exhaust her the next day.
I don't think it's possible to have a good blanket rule for this one. I don't think that pregnant women should be barred from initiation because they are pregnant, but there are serious health and safety considerations that should not be taken lightly. And with secret initiation rituals, I think it really should be up to the discretion of the initiator to be able to say no.
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See my clarifying comment a little further down in the thread. Personally, if a pregnant candidate stated that she had not discussed physical safety concerns with the child's other parent and/or with her OB or midwife, I would wonder if said candidate was taking these risks seriously. This would cause me to ask further questions.
Several years ago, my husband had a degree scheduled. A couple of weeks prior to his degree, he fractured his ankle and was in a walking cast for a month. He could walk and did not have crutches. A brother who had been through the degree advised him that he should be able to do it; however, the initiator (after discussing the extent of his injury with him) determined that the degree needed to be rescheduled. The degree ended up being postponed about two months due to scheduling issues. My husband wasn't happy with it at the time; however, he was glad he waited when he eventually took the degree.
I personally don't see asking a pregnant candidate to wait a few months (either until the birth of a child or until her health and the security of her pregnancy is more stable) in order to better ensure the candidate's health and safety to be any different than asking an injured-but-mostly-able candidate to wait until he or she has fully healed.
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See my clarifying comment a little further down in the thread. Personally, if a pregnant candidate stated that she had not discussed physical safety concerns with the child's other parent and/or with her OB or midwife, I would wonder if said candidate was taking these risks seriously. This would cause me to ask further questions.
Several years ago, my husband had a degree scheduled. A couple of weeks prior to his degree, he fractured his ankle and was in a walking cast for a month. He could walk and did not have crutches. A brother who had been through the degree advised him that he should be able to do it; however, the initiator (after discussing the extent of his injury with him) determined that the degree needed to be rescheduled. The degree ended up being postponed about two months due to scheduling issues. My husband wasn't happy with it at the time; however, he was glad he waited when he eventually took the degree.
I personally don't see asking a pregnant candidate to wait a few months (either until the birth of a child or until her health and the security of her pregnancy is more stable) in order to better ensure the candidate's health and safety to be any different than asking an injured-but-mostly-able candidate to wait until he or she has fully healed.
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