Everything you can do, I can do . . . the same? funnier?
I've been thinking about this since SBS Gayo Daejun. It was the first time the approach in gendering stages and performances really hit me because there were comments at the time about which of the "change" stages people enjoyed more: the girls covering guys' songs or the guys covering girls' songs.
( Boys and Girls weren't created equal? Or, gender issues are close to my heart. )
( Boys and Girls weren't created equal? Or, gender issues are close to my heart. )
So when the girls do boys' dances, they usually have to push themselves to the limit just to pull them off, and even then rarely are they as crisp and coordinated as the original.(Sorry Sorry excepted)
Your mixed reaction to ZE:A's covers might come from a feeling that they aren't living up to their potential just swinging their hips or flicking their legs when they could be breaking it down. I mentioned this before with Jpop, where the talent divide is even more exaggerated. The guys are expected to be perfect all-around males, good at anything they try.(Except maybe vocals) The girls, on the other hand, are expected to be untalented. Wota want to watch their girls grow and develop in their talents over time, with parental pride as they progress. But the boys need to be awesome out of the gate. Heechul is allowed to parody Replay because it is assumed that if need be he could still pull it off straight.
It may be back to the old "men work outside, women work inside" stereotype. If a girl idol is too talented, she won't be the stay-at-home type anymore. Kpop does emphasize the girls' talents, but for some reason they refuse to follow up the syndrom hook moves with actual dancing in the girl's songs as opposed to the boys. The only exception I've seen to this is ITNW, but even then it's "Anneyong dance" was singled out instead of oohing and aahing over the impressive breakdown at the end. (Actually, another exception to this is SweetS, who have memorable dances that are quite impressive in their difficulty. But SweetS never caught on, so they just prove the problem.)
The idolling business itself has a feminine quality with its emphasis on looks, so many of the really hardcore dancers may refuse to associate with it as it would decrease their hear-earned credibility in the eyes of their male peers. There are no "tomgirls" to parallel tomboys. The metrosexual male is also the homosexual cliche. So Jaejoong is allowed to be extremely pretty, but he also has to have chocolate abs "to make up for it."
BoA does seem to be the big exception to all of this, in that she has never had overly feminine choreography, but achieved great popularity despite that. I think it might be that she's pretty enough that her femininity is seen enough to soothe scared alphas. It's the same reason Gahee can be more popular than Hyoyeon.
Star Dance Battle: Since when have people ever voted on idol issues in any way but popularity, no matter what the question?(>.< still at SNSD managing to somehow win "Most likely to succeed IN AMERICA" and all of the SSF people going all "yay! :D im so proud of them for winning another poll <3" in response) I think After School won because it was shortly after the Jaebum fiasco, so all of the 2pm fanbase rallied behind the group covering 2pm "in support".
Reply
I wonder if this doesn't point to deeper gender divisions in the marketing of music. All the guys' songs chosen to be covered were serious and hardcore themselves. Some of the girls' songs simply invited parody: "Bo Peep"? I mean, I can totally picture some of the SNSD girls cheesing up "Juliette" with a lot of playfulness. YoonYul already love the choreo, it would just take not dancing it straight up but playfully. (I also want to point out that it's interesting that it was SHINee, again, that did a serious cover of another female artist's song: Lady Gaga. Complete with redonkulous costumes!)
Your mixed reaction to ZE:A's covers might come from a feeling that they aren't living up to their potential just swinging their hips or flicking their legs when they could be breaking it down.
Not at all. My mixed feelings were from watching a guy group seriously do the choreography. It was definitely a gender-based disconnect for me because it's not something you see commonly and I couldn't decide if I was D: or "Huh," which was pretty telling to myself that my own feelings and thoughts on the subject were pretty tangled up and normalized.
Speaking of "ITNW," was there ever a cover of this stage by a boy group? Despite how "hard"/"intense" the dancing is, it's nothing like what a guy group would receive. All the hopping around, twirling, high-kicking--it's still a feminized form of choreography for the most part, which makes sense since it was the debut song of a girl group. The cheerleading outfits really brought that out, too, with all the fanservice that the high kick brought with it in combination.
There actually was a girl group that was bigger than SNSD that did have a debut video that featured some pretty slick dancing. They didn't work out, though, but I saw their song used with a SNSD dance mix. Mind you, they also had really young members, more J-pop-esque. ARGH, can't find the video so I can't remember the band. D:
The idolling business itself has a feminine quality with its emphasis on looks
Agreed.
The metrosexual male is also the homosexual cliche.
I like this wording. I think this is where JoKwon is always hovering, one foot in this stereotype, one foot out.
I think it might be that she's pretty enough that her femininity is seen enough to soothe scared alphas. It's the same reason Gahee can be more popular than Hyoyeon.
Now this is an interesting point. Let's say Amber danced at the level that HyoYeon is, where would that put her? Her appeal is generally marketed toward girls, so would that mean she be even awesomer? She's not conventionally, femininely pretty, but I would guess that it would make fangirls' heart flutter. BoA's beauty lets her appeal to both markets; Gahee's got a face that could rock androgynous if she wanted to. Where did Hyo get lost in all this? Pushed neither one way or the other enough? (There are several topics in here, lol. I should also add that Beat Freaks' Maryss from Paris is an amazing dancer who hits as hard as the guys . . . and is also strikingly beautiful. So is Rino. Hrm.)
The voting didn't concern me as much, just letting off a little bitterness. LOL @ the example.
Reply
Reply
Since the cute image was left behind, there aren't that many recent boyband songs that can be easily parodied. But I do see what you mean about how they could also do a bit of drag and act all manly to poke fun.
But here comes a different issue as to why there aren't boyband parodies by girls: antis. Apparently one of STAND's favorite "SNSD are rude" pointers is Tiffany's imitation of what's-his-name, and that was just a 5-second thing on the radio. Girl fans seem more fanatical than their male counterparts. There haven't been any bloody letters to Taecyeon warning him to stay away from Yoona, much less bloody letters proclaiming their allegiance to SNSD. And so while girlgroup fans get a kick out of seeing their groups' songs parodied, I'm thinking boyband fans might not be so forgiving. So the girls have been cautious about how they approach the boys' songs. Even Sooyoung's Pajama Party cover was straightforward, no extra hamming at all.
The talent gap has been an issue for me. 2pm's Bo Peep was weird for me to watch because I know how much they can rock it, I'm surprised they didn't enhance the dance a bit with extra moves like Super Junior did with Genie on SDB.
I feel like SHINee and SNSD are the "SM lover" groups, with how genuinely they shill the SM groups, especially each other. Or at least Jonghyun, Onew, and Key are complete SM fans. Minho is at least friends with the members if not a devotee like the other three, while Taemin just does his own thing. It's like watching Sayumi unapologetically fangirling over her fellow H!Pers, but even more openly. So I'm not surprised that it's SHINee alone of the SM groups that knows how to properly cover girl songs, unlike Super Junior.(Seriously, Gee...ugh DX)
The only male cover of ITNW that I know of would be the Star King Tell Me Policemen. I can't see boys trying out the remix. The spins just wouldn't would without skirts/hair. But that just points out again how there can only be tomboys, not tomgirls. There's a definite "feminine dancing" style, but not really a definite "manly dancing" style because if a girl busted out those moves it would be just considered "default" dancing, like how people have characterized BoA's dancing. Except maybe MJ's crotch grabs.
With Amber, it's not so much her dance level that affects her image, it's her confidence. Even though she's chose or was given this boyish image, she hasn't really worked that angle like Yossie did in Mr. Moonlight, and at that point even if she busted out awesome popping or what-not it would still seem awkward.
I-13: That was like para-para with locking, and some breaking? Huh. And yeah, I see the Jpop influences. Wow, that's a real shame that they never took off. It feels like SweetS all over again.
Reply
First, LOL! Second, I'm surprised that you said any of the stages bothered you. The campiness (the over-the-top posturing in particular*) is supposed to be the appeal. Even more surprising that you say it's the SM boys you're ragging on, especially since "Gee" is something they've covered in their own concert and would be, one would assume, covered with love and affection. Interesting.
[*which may be connected with an underlying attempt to distance themselves from the "girliness" of doing a girl group's choreo--sounds like reverse psychology, but the more over-the-top, the more apparent the "not really me/not reflective of my manliess" attitude. Of course, the counterargument would be, "Well, if you were really confident in your manliness . . ."]
I hadn't even thought of the antis! Silly me. I can see where you're coming from with this argument, but I also wonder if, in the scenario in which it's clear the boy band itself is amused with a girl group parodying them (both the guys and the girls watched each other put on these stages) and that there was mutual respect involved (as I do believe is present when guys cover girls), if it couldn't be a way of making fans of each group feel closer. That's a huge hypothetical and even in typing it I don't feel that much conviction in it, but we have seen how fanservice can connect two different fan camps that mutually enjoy what they see--usually because the idol parties involved mutually enjoyed it. Hrm.
Guys do threaten other guys who seem to get close to the girls, though. I just remember that poor reporter interviewing the girls during their viliv shoot at the beach talking about how he got warnings to "watch himself" because he'd seemed too friendly with TaeYeon during some other interview. D: He's not a big celebrity like Taekyeon and certainly not an idol, but still a situation of Scary Fan Actions.
The talent gap has been an issue for me.
I feel this is a tangent that I can't quite follow the direction of. Do you mean the talent gap between 2PM and SuJu?
SHINee and SNSD do SM name drop a lot, don't they? I don't know if SuJu's concert cover of "Gee" was as over-the-top as what they did at SBS Gayo Daejun.
There are a lot of fan dance groups male and female that cover SNSD's dances straight up (Craver has mentioned WaWa for doing SNSD a lot, I think). That doesn't interest me as much as the idol world's stage exchanges.
There's a definite "feminine dancing" style, but not really a definite "manly dancing" style because if a girl busted out those moves it would be just considered "default" dancing
I don't know if I agree with this. If that were true, I think HyoYeon would get a lot more genuine love rather than lip service from SNSD fans. YuRi, who does mostly "feminine" dancing, gets called the "dancer" of SNSD a lot. As in, people think she's the real "Dancing Queen" of SNSD. I think "default" dancing might be generally gender-specific, since HyoYeon is so often pegged as a "boyish" dancer. It's why people don't like the "look" of her dancing: it's not gender appropriate, lol. (Or maybe they just don't like her looks, period, but would rather not say that.)
Mmmm, Yossie. Amber is definitely no Yossie. She's very shy, but I think that gives her like a boyish shyness that people like. BUT! You can be shy in non-stage situations but be FIERCE on stage (Hyo). Amber might actually be a bit more comfortable doing more boyish dancing (that description again!). I think it would make fangirls swoon. In fact, if she danced like that with another member (like Krystal), it might make the fandom die of happiness.
I laughed when I read your description of I-13 because it was so true. I always forget para para exists! And you and SweetS! I-13, too young. D: I watched it again and I was like, "Damn, y'all need a few more years to fill out."
Reply
Amber has some shy charisma going on--the more "aww shucks" she is when she's trying to act "handsome" (moshida?), the more fans are going to swoon.
Argh, para-para. That clip reminds me of why I couldn't get into that group.
Interesting question then: is BoA more successful than Hyo in selling "powerful" dancing to the public, because of her more generic prettiness? Or the fact that her songs don't contradict her image? (Whereas SNSD's songs contradicted Hyo's "hiphop" image, thereby setting up a "disconnect" that made audiences think "I can't buy this"?)
-r.
Reply
Interesting question then: is BoA more successful than Hyo in selling "powerful" dancing to the public, because of her more generic prettiness? Or the fact that her songs don't contradict her image? (Whereas SNSD's songs contradicted Hyo's "hiphop" image, thereby setting up a "disconnect" that made audiences think "I can't buy this"?)
Broke my brain! This may really break down into a larger analysis re: Hyo in SNSD. I think Hyo has a number of factors working against her and a few of them probably derive from the SNSD package: her looks suffer by comparison to her groupmates; her dancing is out of place in the group; her vocals don't measure up to the higher standards in the group; it's taken her so long to cater her personality to the camera (I would argue that HyoYeon's dorky dancing is as much a spectacle as her "powerful" dancing, if not moreso sometimes). Is a comparison to BoA justfied? Probably not. BoA is a real double, possibly triple threat: dynamic dancing, powerful singing, a nice face (in a tiny package). SM must have cried tears of joy to nab up BoA.
But simply Hyo as a dancer? I think part of this issue is that she doesn't have an outlet to showcase her dancing. Most SNSD fans will probably almost always have a disconnect, willing to be like, "That's cool, but more YoonYul for my pleasure, please!" But again, "Strong Heart" was that moment where people came out of nowhere to drop comments that were like, "I like Hyo." If anything, I think Hyo has more successfully sold "powerful" dancing to the more general K-pop audience than she has to SNSD fans. Too many non-SNSD fans pop up to say, "Hyo can dance!" to give me the impression that she isn't reaching some kind of audience. Some of those people may even just be SNSD haters who, nonetheless, want to give props to the black sheep for being the black sheep, lol. I don't think it should be ignored either that so many Hyo!fans are dance fans who then become SNSD fans by association. Something is working here, it just hasn't been marketed very well?
Back in the "What to do about HyoYeon?" post, someone suggested that Hyo's appeal should probably be catered to an audience outside of SNSD's fanbase. I didn't quite agree then because I wasn't sure how to do it, but hell, I'd take that now if that meant shuttling her off to dance stages! I think "powerful" dancing is starting to become more vogue in K-pop with dancers like Minzy and Gahee and, to some extent, even HyunAh. I think it's becoming more a point of pride to be able to dance like the boys if you can. I don't see why else the fandoms would get excited at the mere rumor of a dance battle between these names, even if we all know that even if a "dance battle" were to take place, it would disappoint all of us in execution, lol.
Rambly answer is rambly!
Reply
Also wrt Minzy: chest-pops are showy. She can dance, but she's also got showy audience-pleasers which help her case. Some of Hyo's moves are technically difficult but they don't grab you such that you want to learn more, if you're the average viewer. (We've done this comparison somewhere before...)
Dude(tte), I just thought of something related to your own LJ thread and your exhortation that we not inflate your ego--If Hyoyeon makes it really big later on, whether in SNSD or as a solo, you and the other Hyo!posters are gonna be BNFs =p
Btw, was in ducky's, I mean, Jess' LJ and saw those HyoSica gifs that made my night. Much love,
-r.
Reply
Showy dancing or not, dancing, and dancing well enough to be able to "show off," is a point of pride. I think SM's shoving Hyo front and center during all those music festival dance stages shows that they know that very well and want to keep SNSD's dance pride intact.
Hyo would benefit from a crew. When you see an entire crew ripping it up. *shivers* You realize how amazing it is. I have absolutely no personal background in dance, but you see something like that and you just go, "Damn." ABDC won the hearts of many of this generation because of the awesomeness those crews threw down all over that small stage. That said, I'm curious to know what exactly is in Hyo's repertoire. If she really has been training and practicing all this time, what does she have in her arsenal?
Can't be a BNF if only a handful of people know you. :D
Those gifs are so cute. <3 Probably the most epic moment between them. Also part of the proof that Sica is a kissy person. Hyo . . . is not? (Though I swear she planted a kiss on SeoHyun in "Hello Baby" for Seobaby's birthday that the editing!fail didn't show. You can see Hyo reach to grab Seobaby and then Seobaby squealing . . . as we cut to a shot of KyungSan. FAIL!)
Reply
If Hyo makes it big, and people start a-searching (people who read English, I mean), that wouldn't be the case!
Hyo was probably shocked by that sudden move, hehe. Their relations must have been good enough by this time for such sheningans--I offer your writing bunny organic carrots :D
-r.
Reply
Hyo is just a poser. She was all threatening to kiss Sica, but Sica was like, "Hyo, you just be fronting, you ain't gonna kiss me," and then went all "PREEMPTIVE KISS ATTACK!" and Hyo was all "D:" because she wasn't gonna go through with it anyway and got played.
What are these nonexistent writing bunnies you are trying to feed?
Reply
Sigh, Iunno, maybe I was hoping to feed some into existence?
-r.
Reply
Feed them moar!! Tasty tasty carrots!!
Reply
Sad to say this, but I think Hyo's lack of generic prettiness is exactly the reason. For example, when Kara's Nicole breaks out some hiphop/rapping moves, fans do have a reaction of "wowwwwwww how cooooool". I think if Hyo were conventionally pretty, she'd definitely be more popular. Even when Yuri does her hiphop thing, she definitely gets a reaction to her dancing.
Reply
So I've been watching a lot of Super Junior-M lately, and their U dance definitely has a lot of pelvic thrusts. I think if girls did that, there would definitely be outrage over these girls presenting themselves as "too sexual". On the flip side, body waves and feminine hip moves would only be "suggestively sexual" rather than outright. That's my guess anyway.
Reply
Heechul exemplifies my problem with that stage. Yeah, he's often singled out as the member most mistaken for a girl, but every time he cross-dresses once he start talking and acting he is clearly mocking girly behavior, instead of playing up to it. It's as if he's accepted being "the androgynous one", but when cross-dressing asserts his 'real' gender by doing it all wrong. Like "Hey I know I look female, but since I can't act female that obviously means I can't be one of those queers like Jokwon OKAY?" The non-SM stages were more "I'm secure in my manliness, so I can do this straight-up, like this stuff, and be more manly for it.", which is infinitely less degrading to the girls.
I think "default" dancing might be generally gender-specific, since HyoYeon is so often pegged as a "boyish" dancer.
That's what I mean. Anything not "feminine dancing" is considered male territory, which is the default. And a gender problem that there is no true gender-neutral dancing because it's considered male territory.
I think it's becoming more a point of pride to be able to dance like the boys if you can.
This is exactly the root problem(and the talent gap I mentioned), that the boys are inherently considered superior dancers. In a true equality state it wouldn't be a point of pride to be able to "dance like the boys" because everyone would be able to do it. And there's definitely not a reverse in having pride in being able to dance like the girls, because as you pointed out they also exaggerate those waves for comedy.
Hey, now, I'd throw up a SweetS pimp post if it weren't for all of you being squicky about the underage groups. The only sexual thing about SweetS was the lyrics to their earlier(AWESOME) songs, and the rest of it was talent, talent, talent.
Jailbaitjello: Underage cute girls doing pelvic thrusts cutely! :D
And it's not Hyo's lack of generic prettiness that's completely the problem, but that she's in a group where everyone else(barring Sooyoung) has that kind of generic prettiness in spades. If she were solo or in a group with other non-conventional beauties, they could be all the rage like 2NE1. It's a problem with SNSD's fandom, not Kpop.
Reply
Leave a comment