I don't know how you convince them and get them, but/I don't know what you do/it's unbelievable

[snowgrouse]

-I've been trying to watch tons of old movies and other stuff to keep my mind occupied. But it's horrible because I just went on a Connie binge again like I'd been starving myself and--he frightens me. Like, after you've seen him do the whole evilsex thing and after you've heard him purr and do that panther glide and--there's nobody who can compare

Comments

[snowgrouse]

It's really disconcerting, though. To have to remind oneself that this is less than a hundred years ago and the age of consent had already been introduced as a concept, yet people didn't give a shit about that in the Weimar Berlin days. So the idea of him and everyone else banging everyone regardless of age is frightening, even if it's not dissimilar to something you would've had in ancient Rome or Greece or medieval Persia. Those periods are further away historically and as I said, the age of consent wasn't really a thing back then, so the whole 1910s and 20s debauchery was laden with more sinfulness because people knew what they were doing was wrong. (And even if the emerging gay culture was still valorising the whole boy/man relationship thing, it was still dodgy.) Yet everyone was doing it and even the street next to the theatre he worked in was crowded with aggressive child prostitutes and then he was coked and boozed off his tits and with his mates and... fuck. It's messed up. And then there are the tales of him having prostituted himself, too, when he was short of cash, waltzing around in a dress and I just hope he never visited that restaurant where you could fuck an animal before they killed it and served it to you as dinner and I just... yeah. It was a messed-up time, and he was hardly different from his peers, but it does make one incredibly uneasy to realise that he really *had* seen and experienced things most people wouldn't have when it came to all kinds of perversion and sin and outright evil, TBH. Which, conversely, made him the perfect choice for Torsten because I can't really think of many other actors who would've had that sort of darkness lurking within them.

I really don't fault him for having cleaned up hard later on and having spent so much money on helping children in particular--that in and of itself creeps me out in a way because it makes me wonder exactly how much fucked-up stuff he felt he had to atone for. And to think of his homosexual side being inextricably linked with all kinds of excess just makes me sad because that can't have made it easy for a genuinely bi guy to be ok with his sexuality. Back when, you know, you couldn't really be queer in *healthy* ways without it having to involve drugs and booze and prostitution and fuckage-uppage of all sorts.

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It took me a while to answer because I couldn't believe what you said, wanted to do my own research, at least a little. I got stranded on a site with video clips from the 30s-50s for a while (can't remember where now) and found an interesting book about women photographers in the 20s, among other things. My local library doesn't have much on Conrad Veidt, and the internet was strangely quiet, too, except for a lot of pictures and some articles you have to pay for (which I can't). It sounds like you know a lot about Veidt and Berlin in the 20s, and I wanted to ask if you could recommend a book or an site or smth?

And yes, it makes me incredibly uneasy to think that someone really might have seen and done a lot of these things. Some things should be left to fiction, and fiction alone.

[snowgrouse]

There's a book called Voluptuous Panic that's... well, while it's a bit of a trashy and scandalous book and while some of the material in it is something I'd take with a big grain of salt, it's a good resource on all the "sinful" life in Berlin at the time. Like, fuck, everyone was doing it--there were department stores with boy choirs where you could just buy one of the boys for your use and... it was horrible. It was mostly due to the recession and nearly everyone having to sell themselves and even good middle-class folks offering their kids for prostitution that... I'm not surprised at all that there was such a huge conservative backlash and such huge mental scarring and moral fuckage-uppage that led to the rise of Nazism. It explains a lot if it was a whole generation of people who had been sexually used and it's really damn disturbing. I had no idea it was that widespread but it was pretty much everyone, especially in the artist circles who had to sell themselves and who'd occasionally buy others.

I've got a copy of the book uploaded here (epub format).

But, yeah. Really fucking crazy and not in a good way, but I am really glad that he did emerge as lovely and as kind-hearted and as humanitarian as he did from all that.

But hello, you! I have really missed talking to you and have been thinking about you lately because of the interesting conversations we've had. I just keep thinking of how great it was that Torsten managed to creep the living hell out of you and how I didn't take offense at that at all because that just shows how powerful the performance and the direction was. And you are pushing me into writing Devilry 3, you realise?

[ext_237760]

That's... really, really disturbing. Especially when I think about my great-grandmother that way, it's just, no. Thanks for the book, I'll be reading that. Probably. Or not. We'll see.

I am really glad that he did emerge as lovely and as kind-hearted and as humanitarian as he did from all that.
Yes. The more I hear about this, the more I am, too.

Hi! I've had not much time or internet connection over christmas, and then I hit a rough patch, mental-wise, so I haven't been around much (except for snowflake challenge, snowflake challenge is different).

that just shows how powerful the performance and the direction was
Yes, it really, really was. I'm still all shivery when I think about it. And aroused, definitely aroused *shiver*

And you are pushing me into writing Devilry 3, you realise?
Very good, very good, you do that *cackles madly*

[snowgrouse]

Were you German or Austrian yourself, because I don't remember if you told me? I know you spoke German, anyhow. And yeah, it would frighten me too--I am still horrified at what my grandfather went through during WWII because we had both the Soviets *and* the Nazis trampling all over the place and destroying everything, and it was especially awful in the parts where my family came from. But... yeah. The most frightening thing about it is that it isn't so long ago.

But yes, glad to see you back! I still think about your comments on Devilry a lot because they were among some of the best and most intellectual I'd ever had and I really appreciate them having come from someone who'd actually watched porn and knew about BDSM, and thus could see what I'd done when putting all that rough and kinky stuff into a literary/period context. And that's really rare and something I like to explore--to bring those very gender-divided forms of sexual stimulation together (you know, the whole thing where men go and watch porn movies and women go and read and write fanfic--that strange divide that's never worked for me because my brain's too androgynous for that and I like combining both).

And I'm very glad you're getting the whole disturbed/aroused thing. I think Connie is so damn important for me because he finally severed whatever illusions I ever had of sexual arousal/fantasy having anything to do with one's morals. He was too sexually powerful for that and just... sexual power itself is amoral and beyond everything just as it powers everything as the life force, and it was like this shamanic revelation of the fact.

And I really do hope I will still be alive in the spring/summer to start working on Devilry 3. It's just so, so fucked up I'm going to have to kill them both in the end and your question about whether Laura could be drawn into murdering with him has been on my mind a lot, so will have to see where that goes. BTW, my sympathies on your bad patch mental-wise--I haven't been suicidally depressed in years but I dipped very low lately because of the crazy money/RL/disability stress and everything has seemed hopeless, so I can definitely sympathise. But talking about fannish things like these (and without the crazy judgement that goes on in the political-correctness-gone-mad madhouse that's Tumblr) helps a lot and it's so incredibly valuable, so again, THANK YOU for coming in and talking to me about this stuff. Fuck, but I could go on about it forever.

[ext_237760]

I'm German, and I don't remember much about my great-grandmother, just a smell, really, but there's a picture of her with me as a toddler and she looks beautiful still, and she has such kind eyes and to think that... yeah. My grandparents didn't talk much about what they did in WWII, and I was still very young when they died, so I never got to ask any real questions. Sometimes, I wish I did. Others I'm glad I didn't.

I'm glad to be back. I enjoy our conversations a great deal; it's very satisfying to have found someone who writes even longer answers than I do^^

To be honest, I've never understood this divide when it comes to porn. Sure, not everybody likes everything, but that is just how it is *shrug* It's stupid to attribute that to gender, just because it's easier for women to write their fantasies than to put them on video in a male-dominated industry. And it's not like women only like porn produced by women, and men only like it when it's done by men.

I think Connie is so damn important for me because he finally severed whatever illusions I ever had of sexual arousal/fantasy having anything to do with one's morals.
Yes! This. Fucking finally, someone who gets it! I've struggled to explain this to friends for so long, and they never seem to get it. Even in fandom people get creeped out when I tell them what kind of porn I like. It's like they think that just because I read underage incest rape fic I would somehow be less sensitive to it in real life, less horrified, less willing to do anything to prevent it from happening.

He was too sexually powerful for that and just... sexual power itself is amoral and beyond everything just as it powers everything as the life force, and it was like this shamanic revelation of the fact.
Interesting, I've never thought about it like that. I'm curious, how do asexuals fit into this, or people who aren't attracted to other people all that often?

I hope for that, too.

It's just so, so fucked up I'm going to have to kill them both in the end and your question about whether Laura could be drawn into murdering with him has been on my mind a lot, so will have to see where that goes.
Yeah, it's very much fucked up, and both of them dying would be hard to read. But I trust you to handle it in such a way that it would also be amazing to read, you're just that good.

I've read some of your posts about it, and it sounds bad. Money stuff and not having a home can fuck you up real bad, and I imagine it's so much worse when you're also in pain all the time. For what it's worth, I think you're really brave, asking for help like you did.

Brr, don't mention the hothouse that is tumblr. I love it for the pretty pictures, the short fic, the headcanon posts, and the cute animals, but everything else is just... no. I learned a lot in the beginning, never having read anything about social justice issues before, but pretty soon I also learned when to leave it behind.

Can I throw the THANK YOU right back at you? I don't know many people who even want to discuss these things with me, let alone in this kind of detail. It's new for me, too, and I love it. So please, go on forever if you like^^

[snowgrouse]

It's pretty hard to stop me when I get going, I'm afraid.

And yeah, it used to be a big thing in the 70s-90s feminism I grew up with to separate villainous erotic/love fantasies from RL because all those villains offered alternatives to the boring straight-laced patriarchal heroes anyway, but ah well. Fandom is so incredibly stupid and reductionist these days that it makes me sad. I try to remind people of the Agatha Christie rule: just because someone's good at writing about murder, it doesn't mean they have a bunch of bodies buried in their backyard. (And I bet Thomas Harris isn't, shockingly, a charming cannibal nor is Stephen King possessed by supernatural forces. But you try telling that to some poeple these days.)

And re: the sexual power thing: the whole concept of "asexuality" is hugely triggery for me, so I don't know how far I want to discuss it. But I'll just say it once: I am sick and tired of people using a term that means a lack of sexuality to describe what's effectively *introverted* sexuality and that's doing a lot of harm. Particularly as it's incredibly sexist, ablist and dualist and all kinds of offensively ridiculous to paint as physical sex as the only "real" sort of sex, particularly as the mental/psychological/literary/imaginary aspects of sex and masturbation are always going to be more powerful and better than any RL sex. And as I'm that rare beast--a woman with a high sex drive and know, from *brutal* experience how hard expressions of female sexuality are repressed all the time, I don't really have time for any whining from the "asexual" lot. Sorry if that sounds offensive if you identify as such, but it's one of those groups on Tumblr that's very loud and very ignorant and which I will avoid to the end. But when people start talking about the power of introverted sexuality, literary sexuality (fanfic and wanking, which is what most of these "asexuals" do all day anyway), then we can get back to that. For the record, I'm hypersexual but I prefer the erotic on the mental/literary/masturbation level and very rarely fancy people, especially men IRL (I've usually only gone physically gaga over women IRL) and don't think physical sex is ever going to be as good as fictional sex. So according to some people's definitions I'd fit into that niche myself, even if the term is so fucking wrong it needs to die and people *really* need to start using "autosexual" instead. But it's just become so politicised and fucked up to the point where it's just become an Oppressed Minority Term for "honey, I have a headache" or the "women don't have sex drives" cliche *or* women being bullied out of being sexual that it's insanely triggery and anger-inducing so I'd rather not talk about it much--I just had to spew this out to explain why it is that for me. It just hits all my triggers about sexual repression, that of women in particular (because of that aforementioned gender pattern of women being more neurologically and socially and hormonally disposed towards written/psychological sex). But no, I do think sexual power is sexual power in all its forms and if anything, it exists even more strongly in the mind than in the genitals.

*climbs down from off the ceiling*

I have had some visuals for Torsten and Laura's death already, and you bet that they will die together and go out in a blaze of glory. It couldn't be anything except spectacular. I'm *itching* to write it because the visuals are so shocking and so powerful, and I do hope to get back into their world soon.

And I'll throw that "thank you" right back at you! The discussion is good, even if the internet's turned so many topics triggery as fuck now. I won't apologise for being burned out on the social justice nutters and people generally being ignorant arseholes about sexuality and gender on Tumblr because it really is a terrorist hellhole of uneducated self-misogynist idiots (rather than *actual* sexual/gender diversity) these days, so the less we talk about them the better. I'm all for intellectual and educated discussions about fanfic and pr0nz, however.

Glad you reblogged the Kurt/Ursula pr0nz, BTW. Another good example of how the characters being dicks doesn't really matter when there's hot fucking to be had--bastarding Connie was too good at that.

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I am sorry I triggered you, and I'm gonna be treading carefully here. What you said about literary sexuality, I heard it in a few other places as well. The first time was in an old discussion in a friend's journal, and I haven't yet found the words to describe how much of a revelation that was. I never thought other people experienced texts of any kind (podfics, fics, video clips, vids, pictures, comics, music, movies, tv series, etc.) the same way I did: on a visceral and sensual level that makes it impossible not to be affected by it. To hear it described as a sexuality, it left me speechless. So many things fell into place, it was breathtaking.

So yeah, I know about the power of literary sexuality, or texuality as I called it then, and I have the extensive library of all sorts of texts to prove it.

And there is another side to it, as well. After I realized that my way of experiencing texts can be classified as a sexuality, I realized something else as well: I'm a hedonist. I always touch things to see what they feel like, making sure it smells nice where I am, sunbathing naked in my living room, a hot bath and warm sheets, going out into the park to hear the birds, all kinds of things.

I don't know if it was just coincidence that these two revelations came so fast after one another. It's weird, because literary sexuality is so much in the mind, and this kind of sensuality is so very physical. But then, every time I read your fic, I have the urge to revel in sensuality, to have a bath, mostly, and put on clean and warm clothes afterwards. Well, after the wanking, of course.

And there's another thing as well. I love texts, I love to let myself be manipulated by texts, and I use them to manipulate myself. But I am also, and at the same time, very critical about them. I have a very analytical mindset when it comes to texts, characters, narratives, tropes, etc. I always want to know how they did it, and I am very picky. I know a good or exceptional text when I see one, and I know exactly why they're good or exceptional. I think it's probably because it's a kind of self preservation instinct. Because I get affected by text so much, I need to know how to spot ones that would hurt me, and to do that, I need to be analytical as well as emotional.

This turned into something much different from what I set out to write. I haven't talked about this much to anyone yet, not in so much detail, anyway. I don't think they'll understand. I wanted to talk about literary sexuality, and I didn't know how else to go about it.

[snowgrouse]

I really don't know what we should call this because "autosexuality" seems bland to describe this, too--but this is exactly how I am, too. The sexuality of the spirit, the sensualism, the indulgence--yes, yes, yes! This is exactly what I am about, too. And when I read writing that inspires me--like Anaïs Nin, or Angela Carter--I too want to put on perfumes and dance and tart myself up in beautiful, feminine clothes. Anaïs even took moon-baths naked in her room when she was a teenager:)

I don't even know if we should call these things "texts", although I know what you mean by them. They are far wider than that, and even... "media" doesn't seem to encompass them. Hell, it's the entire *world* that affects this type of person, isn't it? I wonder if you too are on the autism spectrum as I am if you feel these things very intensely--you seem to display several characteristics that click with these things. Introverted sexuality, androgynous brainx, hypersensitivity to upsetting things because of a high sense of identification (I cannot abide rape scenes in books and movies without feeling I am raped myself, so that's why I don't read award-winning female writers or watch gritty dramas), being critical, having very sensitive senses, being highly creative and literal and depression-prone.

I too want to make sure what I wear smells good and that it is of some dark, deep colour that makes me feel good (I hate pastels and whites because they leech me and make me feel drained, whereas I love wearing blood red, black, deep purple and emerald green because they envelop me in various pleasures). Hence, this was reflected in Laura's bedroom in NY (and was also inspired by the décor Anaïs loved to live in). In fact, my writing is at its most sensual in my early Jaffar/Princess fics, because then I can indulge in all the medieval Persian pleasures because that era is my expertise. So there are plenty of perfumes and delicious foods and incense and beautiful fabrics and items and things.

I don't know if you've seen Thief of Bagdad yet, but when you have, I recommend that you read my earlier fics first--The King's White Falcon series, The Past Forgotten and then move on to the saga that's Of Roses Unfurling. Roses was, in fact, my first series, but it's in Falcon and TPF that I was at my best, as my health's been messing with my writing ever since I finished Bird of the Wilderness. And I wrote the Falcon saga to heal from heartbreak and that's the most spiritual of my works so far--I was crying my eyes out with it but it was a very cathartic process, and I still think it's the best work I've written so far. If I were to write it now, I'd probably change several things, but it's so sacred to me that I won't.

Also why I would never, ever go pro and publish these things because it'd feel like rape and my disability/chronic fatigue prevents me from writing to deadlines anyway. I would never ever submit my creativity--my heart's blood, my very sexuality--to editors. JSYK, that's also a hugely triggery thing for me. I'd much rather offer the stuff to thousands of people all over the world for free on Ao3.

But anyway, enough rambling--respond when you can and write another response if you want if you had more ideas on my previous response:)

[ext_237760]

I have no idea what to call it, either. "Literary sexuality/texuality" doesn't cover the sensualism that is an integral part of it for me. Just like any other sexual encounter, really, just not necessarily at the same time. "Autosexuality" and "introverted sexuality" are more apt, I think, but I have also found that sharing this experience with other people who feel as deeply about a particular text (or ship, or character, or trope, etc.) can keep me high and floating for days. Especially when the sharing happens irl, and is accompanied by other sensual experiences, like really delicious cupcakes, spiced cinnamon tea, or listening to music together.

I don't actually know if I am on the spectrum, but I don't think so. I did a little research, and I think someone would've noticed when I was younger? I mean, the literature talks a lot about diagnosing children, not adults, and I am sure my parents would've told me if a diagnosis ever even was on the table.

I hate pastels as well, they're just... idk, just half there? Like, they tried to be colours but didn't make it? I prefer saturated black, green, purple, and blue, light or dark depending on my mood and what I need that day.

I liked Laura's bedroom, the dark, bold colours and rich textures, arranged just so to be warm and welcoming and intimate. Reminded me a lot of the decor on Hannibal (tv show), which had the same colours and qualities, but instead of being intimate it kept its distance. I am actually working on creating something like it in my own home, which is difficult because I don't have the funds. But this time around, I refuse to put any furniture in my rooms that I don't like 100% (excepting bare essentials like bed and desk), even if that means my flat contains nothing but the bare essentials atm.

I have seen Thief of Bagdad by now, and I also read your Falcon series. I am reading Roses atm, that means I have TPF to look forward to. I hadn't thought it possible that there could be anything more sensual than Devilry, but you're right, there is. It actually was TKWF that inspired me to take my first full bath in about eight years or so, finally trying out the bathing salts that were gathering dust in my bathroom for so long, and finding out I absolutely love it.

I totally get your point about not going pro. I created transmedia stories professionally for a while, had my own project but worked closely with a team. I still think it's the best thing that could've happened to me, but yeah, some things were and still are very hard to take, especially because I put so much thought and research into stories and characters, and my bosses sometimes have very different opinions on what would make a good story.

The moon-bathing quote on tumblr, I like it. Sounds like an interesting story^^

I don't even know if we should call these things "texts", although I know what you mean by them. They are far wider than that, and even... "media" doesn't seem to encompass them. Hell, it's the entire *world* that affects this type of person, isn't it?
Hmmm, yes. I could sit for hours on end and just watch the sea, or experience lights in a certain way to get me high. I can bliss out working in the garden on a cool summers day, and get mesmerized by the glinting water in a glass. I love to fill my flat with the smell of baked goods, and sometimes, I have physical reactions to strangers, just because she wears her hair a certain way, or smiles a certain way.

[snowgrouse]

Just dropping a note here to say that my mental health isn't up for continuing this conversation. As fascinating as aspects of it are, it's really sapping my strength and hitting those various triggers I mentioned and it's so wide-ranging it's exhausting. Plus, I have serious PTSD about various sexuality/gender-related issues, so it's really frustrating because even if I might want to talk about some of them, it's really triggery and exhausting in and of itself, so it's not worth it. Please don't ask me to explain, because the idea of having to do that is depressing and exhausting, too! I'm trying very hard to climb out of a suicidal depression right now and not sure if I'm going to succeed, so I have to avoid anything that sets me off. But I'm just letting you know so that you won't wait for replies or something.

[ext_237760]

Thank you for dropping the note, I very much appreciate it. It's not an easy conversation, and I know it isn't always the right time for these things. If you ever want to come back to it, I'll be here. Otherwise, I think I am gonna re-read Falcon now, I find myself suddenly craving a little more Jaffar/princess in my life^^

[snowgrouse]

More Falcon is never a bad thing, as that 'verse is my happy place--the healing process was important. But do leave comments as you read, because I'd love to discuss the stories over on Ao3. Especially so that other people will be able to perhaps find answers to the questions they had about the stories, and then I could tell you about what spurred me into writing the story in the first place. But over on Ao3, it's better.

Oh, BTW, and click on my "annotations" tag on this LJ because I've got extensive annotations posts on my Persian fics. Not on all of them (I really ought to start with the one for Bird of the Wilderness), but they should help in explaining some of the Islamic mysticism and all the stuff about medieval Persia that goes into the fics.

[snowgrouse]

P.S. Comments on Ao3 are always appreciated, though. Would love to hear what you thought of Falcon, especially, as I'm really proud of that one.

[ext_237760]

(continued)
I've been reading over our conversation here, and I found a few things I'd like to add.

re. porn: Do you have any idea why people think that stimulation by fanfic should be different than stimulation by video or pictures/comics? It doesn't feel different to me, and I can't find a pattern on when I use what to get the desired result.

re. BDSM: I do have friends in the scene, and you could say I've dabbled, read a few things, too. It's really weird how fantasies from people inside the scene read different to even the kinkiest fanfic. I think it's not just because every scenes has their own tropes and narratives, but also because the needs that the stories fulfill are different.

re. asexuality: I am not sure I want to discuss this further. Yes, I do identify as asexual in the wider world, and there are reasons for it, even though it doesn't really fit all aspects of my sexuality. Since I am not gonna apologize either, and since I suspect this is triggery as hell for both of us, I suggest we stop here.

[snowgrouse]

Oh, and re: other things you said on Tumblr: if I want to show people someone's tags, I just go to their original post and copypaste the tags from there onto the reblog's caption window. That, and there's been a German Blu-Ray of Thief of Bagdad out for two years--I got it for Christmas in 2012:) So that one will probably be cheaper than the new UK release. And Jaffar is always worth it...