I haven't had a chance to read through everything, but it is a very interesting discussion. Much of this boils down to privledge, and those in the majority, in this case men, often have a really hard time seeing their own privledge. But even beyond that, the way we socialize kids continues to perpetuate the issues and problems.
Every time we tell a male that no means no, we also have to tell women that no means no. You can talk to many many men who have had experiences where a woman says no but ultimately means yes. I don't think women mean to do this, but as some of the comments talked about, women are taught to deny what they want and to be ashamed of having a sex drive. Saying no is a way for them to do what they think they should do, but ultimately their actions go in a completely different direction.
I personally advise men that as soon as they hear no that they stop. AND remain stopped, and this holds true no matter at what ponit they're at. You'd think most men and women would see the merit in this, but I actually get quite a bit of resistance.
What I like the most about the original post is that it focues on this being a sytemic issue. It isn't about any one individual. It is about a society and culutre that make the attitude so prevlent. It's about teaching notions of entitlement.
And while there are men I love and adore who I am confident would respect my no and any other no ever spoken to them, it doesn't change the type of culture we live in. And if I stopped and thought about it, I know I've perpetuated it without even realiing it myself. Situations that you don't intentd to happen that happen anyway can be a slipperty slop. I think ultimately thinking about things and talking about them are the best way to make sure that we aren't perpuating the culture we live in, and sometimes, even though things ultimately work out well, I think we have to own up to where we've been part of the problem, and not the solution.
And really, for me, that is realy hard to admit. I've always thought I was part of the change, and I realize I too can be part of the problem.
My personal psychologist had a really interesting train of thought for me a while back when I was first starting to confront my inability to accept that people care about me (easily my biggest sticky issue, and I've had a lot of backslides):
"Have these people in your life ever said that no, they can't or don't want to spend time with you right then? (yes) So, since you know that in the past they *have* said no when they can't or don't want to spend time with you, shouldn't that make it that much more meaningful when they say that yes, they do?" (The general upshot being that when I start worrying that they're only doing it to humor me but don't really want to themselves, I'm supposed to remember that they have turned me down in the past, so that's evidence of such humoring being not something they do.)
I know I've been on the receiving end of this kind of pressure. I also know sometimes I've been the one who inflicted it on myself. But that's why I think it's so important to nudge our culture toward being one where "no" really means "no" and that's really and truly okay - because then it also makes it a whole lot more likely that "yes" really means "yes".
Every time we tell a male that no means no, we also have to tell women that no means no. You can talk to many many men who have had experiences where a woman says no but ultimately means yes. I don't think women mean to do this, but as some of the comments talked about, women are taught to deny what they want and to be ashamed of having a sex drive. Saying no is a way for them to do what they think they should do, but ultimately their actions go in a completely different direction.
I personally advise men that as soon as they hear no that they stop. AND remain stopped, and this holds true no matter at what ponit they're at. You'd think most men and women would see the merit in this, but I actually get quite a bit of resistance.
What I like the most about the original post is that it focues on this being a sytemic issue. It isn't about any one individual. It is about a society and culutre that make the attitude so prevlent. It's about teaching notions of entitlement.
And while there are men I love and adore who I am confident would respect my no and any other no ever spoken to them, it doesn't change the type of culture we live in. And if I stopped and thought about it, I know I've perpetuated it without even realiing it myself. Situations that you don't intentd to happen that happen anyway can be a slipperty slop. I think ultimately thinking about things and talking about them are the best way to make sure that we aren't perpuating the culture we live in, and sometimes, even though things ultimately work out well, I think we have to own up to where we've been part of the problem, and not the solution.
And really, for me, that is realy hard to admit. I've always thought I was part of the change, and I realize I too can be part of the problem.
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"Have these people in your life ever said that no, they can't or don't want to spend time with you right then? (yes) So, since you know that in the past they *have* said no when they can't or don't want to spend time with you, shouldn't that make it that much more meaningful when they say that yes, they do?" (The general upshot being that when I start worrying that they're only doing it to humor me but don't really want to themselves, I'm supposed to remember that they have turned me down in the past, so that's evidence of such humoring being not something they do.)
I know I've been on the receiving end of this kind of pressure. I also know sometimes I've been the one who inflicted it on myself. But that's why I think it's so important to nudge our culture toward being one where "no" really means "no" and that's really and truly okay - because then it also makes it a whole lot more likely that "yes" really means "yes".
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