Book discussion: Fire and Hemlock, Parts Three and Four (and Coda)

[shimotsuki]

Here is the second of two discussion posts for Fire and Hemlock, by Diana Wynne Jones. This post is currently public, so that anyone interested can read and join in the discussion, but if any of my f-listers would prefer that I f-lock the post instead, let me know and I will do that

Comments

[huldrejenta]

I enjoyed this book a lot, and it's a book I probably hadn't found or thought of by myself

[shimotsuki]

Tom does say explicitly to Polly that she were his only chance, and that he had to keep getting in touch with her because of it.

True, by the end of the story it's clear that Polly has become Tom's only chance, but what I find interesting about this is that Tom seems to know immediately that Polly is the one. She can't have been the only -- person? woman? girl? -- he'd ever talked to from outside, so how did he know she was it, and why did he know right away? (And why Polly? Probably it couldn't have been Ann, whose mother was a Leroy, but why not someone else in the orchestra, for example?)

And since Polly was a part of inventing the hero, her presence was needed for Tom to keep on doing it. That's an excellent point. Another one of my questions is whether Tom had already started to break free before Polly. He must have, a little bit, in order to divorce Laurel and move away, but Granny and Mintchoc definitely thought he was still connected to Laurel's people at the beginning, so maybe it was Polly helping Tom create Tan Coul

[huldrejenta]

Tom seems to know immediately that Polly is the one. She can't have been the only -- person? woman? girl? -- he'd ever talked to from outside, so how did he know she was it, and why did he know right away? (And why Polly? Probably it couldn't have been Ann, whose mother was a Leroy, but why not someone else in the orchestra, for example?)I agree, he seems to know right away

[jobey_in_error]

I'm inclined to agree with huldrejenta on the vase thing--Tom obviously suspected that she was an outsider, and therefore Significant, from the very start, and during their talk he was only getting more and more hints (Polly's favorite thing is being things, is it?) -- but the vases could have been confirmation.

I would love to feel more certain I understood the water vision, though. Understanding this might clear up the end, too. ;) Is water significant anywhere else in the book? Wasn't Polly at a swim meet, when Tom held the umbrella for Granny and Granny scared him off? (My room is dark right now, can't/don't want to check. ;)

(This comment doesn't actually include any book discussion - just folk music...)

[katyhasclogs]

Oh, I'm so glad that there's a link to that essay - I have a copy of it myself in a book of DWJ essays, but I'd never been able to find it online before that. It's good to know everyone else can read it too. :)

I've just checked my iTunes library, and I have no fewer than 9 versions of Tam Lin! I have to admit to not being that fond of the Steeleye version - it just can't compare with the guitar bits on the Fairport one. I'm re-listening to the Bill Jones right now, and what a treat - it's been so long since I listened to any of her albums. I'd really recommend checking her out if you don't know her stuff already - Panchpuran is a particularly good album.

Thanks for the link to the tune, btw. I know you asked in the other thread, and I haven't yet answered, whether I knew it. I didn't, only the song (9 versions, apparently, lol). It's really lovely though.

I did discover though, completely by accident while trying to bring some sense of order to my iTunes this weekend is that Hunsdon House is a tune and a dance. The version

Re: (This comment doesn't actually include any book discussion - just folk music...)

[shimotsuki]

I've just checked my iTunes library, and I have no fewer than 9 versions of Tam Lin!

LOL -- I have at least three versions of the Tam Lin reel, myself. (That cello player really wasn't doing it up to speed, but I thought it was cool that there was a cello version at all, heh.)

I have to admit to not being that fond of the Steeleye version - it just can't compare with the guitar bits on the Fairport one.

Hmm, see, I'm the other way. I really like the "♩. ♩ ♩." rhythm in the first section of the SS version. I also like that they used Bulgarian folk tunes. :) Sometimes it's just a question of what you hear first! (And for what it's worth, I like the SS live version from "Tonight's the Night Live" much more than the studio version they've got on another album.)

I'd really recommend checking her out if you don't know her stuff already - Panchpuran is a particularly good album.

I will! That link I posted was the first I'd run across Bill Jones at all, but she has such a beautiful voice.

Hunsdon House is a tune and a dance.Oh,

Re: (This comment doesn't actually include any book discussion - just folk music...)

[katyhasclogs]

Sometimes it's just a question of what you hear first!

Definitely! By the time I heard the Steeleye one, the Fairport version had already been fixed in my head as definitive. ;)

That link I posted was the first I'd run across Bill Jones at all, but she has such a beautiful voice.

I'm really surprised at myself that I didn't include her in your cd, but I think even at that point she had stopped doing stuff (she made 3 albums and won some awards then got married and had children, at which point I guess all the touring became a bit difficult) so perhaps that's why I didn't think of her. Still so glad you like them though - they're jam packed with my favourite folky stuff (just with a notable exception it seems...)

The dance video seems to be titled "Hudson House", but that may just be a variant

You know, I hadn't even noticed that! It came up when I searched for 'Hunsdon House' so I just assumed, but yes, I think it's one of those title variations you get with the tradition. Here's a cool version that I didn't link to originally

[jobey_in_error]

My thoughts are kind of jumbled. I'll be back, I'm sure.

There's a sort of urgency to some of the questions you're asking, because there are some doubts in me that to some of them there are no good answers, no subtle but sure clues, and I'm not wild about that. So the book would go down in my estimation if I start thinking too hard and then decide there was no thoughtful answer to the riddles. ;)

Just an observation as I skimmed through Tom and Polly's first meeting with everyone's comments so far in mind. One of the strange things that I hadn't been quite able to articulate before is that, at first meeting, it seems as if "these people" can hardly wait to be rid of Tom, but then later of course we find that, quite the opposite, Tom cannot get free of them if he tries.

Completely opposite -- like how the "real" Thomas Piper is mean and the "real" Edna and Leslie are nice. Sometimes Nowhere/Now Here means topsy-turvy. But sometimes too it's not a mirror image but a near image.

Just to make it hard... ;)

[shimotsuki]

Sometimes Nowhere/Now Here means topsy-turvy. But sometimes too it's not a mirror image but a near image.

Yes! I have another whole set of questions about how the making-things-up works and how the "reality" they create is or isn't like what Tom and Polly imagine, which I will happily raise if no one else does. ;)

There's a sort of urgency to some of the questions you're asking, because there are some doubts in me that to some of them there are no good answers, no subtle but sure clues, and I'm not wild about that. So the book would go down in my estimation if I start thinking too hard and then decide there was no thoughtful answer to the riddles. ;) Yeah, I suspected that there may not be an obvious answer within the story to some of these questions, either. But I'm also notorious for missing details or not picking up on hints -- especially on a first read-through -- so I thought it was worth throwing all this out there for discussion in case other people saw things that I didn't

[huldrejenta]

It may be a legitimate choice for DWJ to leave some things mysterious; maybe she just doesn't care how some of the technical details play out, or maybe she actually likes the idea of readers constructing their own theories about how things worked.

But this question is interesting on a meta-level, too, given Tom's insistence, on Polly's first visit to London, that she think through how the Tom Lynn / Thomas Piper / Tan Coul magic worksI get the feeling - which may of course change if/when I read the book again - that there are enough clues in the book for the readers to construct perfectly plausible theories and reasonable answers about how the magic works, but not clues that make us certain if our theory is the only correct one

[shimotsuki]

I get the feeling - which may of course change if/when I read the book again - that there are enough clues in the book for the readers to construct perfectly plausible theories and reasonable answers about how the magic works, but not clues that make us certain if our theory is the only correct one.

I think that's a good way to look at it.

A subtle suggestion that we as readers use what we learn in the story to figure out our version of the details?

Could very well be!

[jobey_in_error]

Then there's the photo of Tom; some kind of magic let Polly see it in the mirror at Hunsdon House. Is that another consequence of the fact that she is the one who can save Tom? Or is some benign magic in Hunsdon House deliberately showing her that to help out? Surely it's significant that she takes the photo out of the house, even though Laurel or Mr. Leroy apparently steal it back later.

Same as the magic that let Polly get inside at all, and let her listen in on Tom and Mr. Leroy... I think you could write a good "flipped perspective" fanfic pitying Laurel, "queen" of a kingdom that sometimes actively works against her (I wonder could she escape either, if she tried?)

[shimotsuki]

Same as the magic that let Polly get inside at all, and let her listen in on Tom and Mr. Leroy

Right, or that gave the other string quartet the flu ;) or let Polly (and Granny) remember in time.

I think you could write a good "flipped perspective" fanfic pitying Laurel, "queen" of a kingdom that sometimes actively works against her

That's a pretty cool idea! I bet you could even write her as ruthless-but-sympathetic, ensnaring outsiders as she does to try to protect her own family as much as she can.

[huldrejenta]

I think you could write a good "flipped perspective" fanfic pitying Laurel, "queen" of a kingdom that sometimes actively works against her

This I'd love to read!
There're really so many things I find appalling about Laurel, so reading this perspective would have been interesting.

Comment thread for cool minor details

[shimotsuki]

Notice anything trivial, but cool? Here's a place to put it. :)

Re: Comment thread for cool minor details

[shimotsuki]

I just got to the beginning of Part Three on my reread last night, and noticed something that I had missed on my first read, when I didn't yet know whose photo Polly had stolen from Hunsdon House. (Though maybe I'm just obtuse and DWJ expected me to have figured out about the photo already, heh.)

Anyway: It must have been Polly who gave that other string quartet the flu!

She was at Reg and Joanna's, and couldn't sleep, so she got out the stolen photo and fell asleep holding it. And then, lo and behold, those poor unknown musicians are felled by the flu, and the Dumas Quartet stays in town one day longer than planned, and they are there when Polly needs help.

I suspect this is why Mr. Leroy found Polly in Bristol, too, that he knew that some magic had been worked there on Polly's behalf.

Re: Comment thread for cool minor details

[jobey_in_error]

Anyway: It must have been Polly who gave that other string quartet the flu!

She was at Reg and Joanna's, and couldn't sleep, so she got out the stolen photo and fell asleep holding it. And then, lo and behold, those poor unknown musicians are felled by the flu, and the Dumas Quartet stays in town one day longer than planned, and they are there when Polly needs help.

That's... kind of awesome.

Re: Comment thread for cool minor details

[gilpin25]

She was at Reg and Joanna's, and couldn't sleep, so she got out the stolen photo and fell asleep holding it. And then, lo and behold, those poor unknown musicians are felled by the flu, and the Dumas Quartet stays in town one day longer than planned, and they are there when Polly needs help.

Oh my. That's one heck of a catch. :D