Book discussion: Fire and Hemlock, Parts Three and Four (and Coda)

[shimotsuki]

Here is the second of two discussion posts for Fire and Hemlock, by Diana Wynne Jones. This post is currently public, so that anyone interested can read and join in the discussion, but if any of my f-listers would prefer that I f-lock the post instead, let me know and I will do that

Comments

[jobey_in_error]

My thoughts are kind of jumbled. I'll be back, I'm sure.

There's a sort of urgency to some of the questions you're asking, because there are some doubts in me that to some of them there are no good answers, no subtle but sure clues, and I'm not wild about that. So the book would go down in my estimation if I start thinking too hard and then decide there was no thoughtful answer to the riddles. ;)

Just an observation as I skimmed through Tom and Polly's first meeting with everyone's comments so far in mind. One of the strange things that I hadn't been quite able to articulate before is that, at first meeting, it seems as if "these people" can hardly wait to be rid of Tom, but then later of course we find that, quite the opposite, Tom cannot get free of them if he tries.

Completely opposite -- like how the "real" Thomas Piper is mean and the "real" Edna and Leslie are nice. Sometimes Nowhere/Now Here means topsy-turvy. But sometimes too it's not a mirror image but a near image.

Just to make it hard... ;)

[shimotsuki]

Sometimes Nowhere/Now Here means topsy-turvy. But sometimes too it's not a mirror image but a near image.

Yes! I have another whole set of questions about how the making-things-up works and how the "reality" they create is or isn't like what Tom and Polly imagine, which I will happily raise if no one else does. ;)

There's a sort of urgency to some of the questions you're asking, because there are some doubts in me that to some of them there are no good answers, no subtle but sure clues, and I'm not wild about that. So the book would go down in my estimation if I start thinking too hard and then decide there was no thoughtful answer to the riddles. ;) Yeah, I suspected that there may not be an obvious answer within the story to some of these questions, either. But I'm also notorious for missing details or not picking up on hints -- especially on a first read-through -- so I thought it was worth throwing all this out there for discussion in case other people saw things that I didn't

[huldrejenta]

It may be a legitimate choice for DWJ to leave some things mysterious; maybe she just doesn't care how some of the technical details play out, or maybe she actually likes the idea of readers constructing their own theories about how things worked.

But this question is interesting on a meta-level, too, given Tom's insistence, on Polly's first visit to London, that she think through how the Tom Lynn / Thomas Piper / Tan Coul magic worksI get the feeling - which may of course change if/when I read the book again - that there are enough clues in the book for the readers to construct perfectly plausible theories and reasonable answers about how the magic works, but not clues that make us certain if our theory is the only correct one

[shimotsuki]

I get the feeling - which may of course change if/when I read the book again - that there are enough clues in the book for the readers to construct perfectly plausible theories and reasonable answers about how the magic works, but not clues that make us certain if our theory is the only correct one.

I think that's a good way to look at it.

A subtle suggestion that we as readers use what we learn in the story to figure out our version of the details?

Could very well be!

[jobey_in_error]

It may be a legitimate choice for DWJ to leave some things mysterious... But this question is interesting on a meta-level, too, given Tom's insistence, on Polly's first visit to London, that she think through how the Tom Lynn / Thomas Piper / Tan Coul magic works -- even when Polly wants to wave her hands and skip over the details. ;)

Both excellent points and very calming, thanks. ;)

[shimotsuki]

You know, I've had another thought. And I really ought to go follow that link that gilpin25 found for us, about DWJ's sources and influences for this story -- but maybe it's the case that if we read what Polly did, like The Golden Bough (which my partner just went and hauled out of a box for me because he was tired of hearing me mindlessly speculate, lol) and "East of the Sun, West of the Moon," and all, we might collect enough context to understand more about how Laurel's magic, and the rest of it, is supposed to work.

[jobey_in_error]

That's a good idea.

Tangentially, I was thinking a lot about the fairy tales I already knew. One motif that came out very strongly for me was Polly using the magic to "see" Tom (and Laurel!) even though she sensed it was wrong.

When I TA'd for a fairy tale course, we saw this motif in a lot of stories across Europe/Russia -- it goes all the way back, of course, to at least Psyche and Cupid. One lover looks upon the other, or destroys their cover, too soon, and loses the lover, usually with the "wronged" lover (but (s)he's not indignant, just matter-of-fact + sad) saying something like, "If you had only waited one year, I would have been yours forever

[shimotsuki]

it goes all the way back, of course, to at least Psyche and Cupid

Ooh, you're very good. I just read the DWJ essay, and she considers the story of Cupid and Psyche to be a sort of subterranean influence on F&H. (Apparently she once pointed out to her editor that Tom is nearly blind, and works with a bow -- I can't help a little eyeroll at that, but the point is a good one, about the recurring theme of failing by trying to look at what you're not supposed to see.)

I've been going about wondering if it's fair to apply this interpretation to Polly and Tom, or whether this more fleshed-out version of the motif doesn't lend itself. Despite Polly being the one who "looked," you'd almost think she would be in the role of the one who wasn't finished growing yet, since she was the one who was still a child! For all that the four years' separation must have been brutally hard on Tom, especially if that got him re-ensnared, it does manage to make the idea of a romance between these characters less squicky, since Polly is (more or less)

[jobey_in_error]

Maybe you'll find out where "Tan" comes from? #ignorance #reallyhardtoGooglethisone