death parade #2 (liveblog/notes)
I have a day off, so y'all get to suffer SPAM.
- Okay, the flowers are obvious funerary imagery right? But the tree bothers me.
- 15th floor. Yeah, figured we'd see the number 15 cropping up again. Too bad it's not 10 floors, that would be easier to understand
- Hmm they're the only ones who get off at this stop (and note the lotus imagery) -- This is the Buddhist stop then? and the other bartenders have their own afterlife stops?
- "Decim" though -- is that the guy's name? there's my number 10 :P
- Nona and Clavis. Clavis Idk but isn't Nona nine? And ahaha yeah that's his name. So now we have Mr. Ten and Ms. Nine
- Awwwwww ACTUAL EXPLANATIONS. <3
- Quin. So Ms. Five? Sends memories. Hmmmm.
- Oh there are the puppets. Decim's responsible for them.
- OMG I love how we're now seeing all the behind-the-scenes stuff. Ahahahahaha.
(I was totes right that this wasn't intended to be ambiguous. Ha.)
- That said, now I have no idea where they're gonna take the rest of this series...
- AHAHAHA OMG I WAS SO RIGHT. Fuck. Do I get to rub it in? XD
- That said, I'm still not convinced the void is a negative result. "Decim" seems to understand less than Nona, so I guess that nixes any idea of the numbers being some sort of ranking.
(Plus IMO this contradicts some of the implied characterization in Billiards -- but of course Billiards is only the prototype version.)
- Hmm so I think the assistants are temporary. But given Decim's doubts, I have suspicions....... I also start to think the eyes have major implications after all (Note: Clavis doesn't open his eyes)
(yeps "three months" apparently?)
- - -
OK... so for me that wasn't a VERY helpful episode, but I TOTALLY GET TO GLOAT NOW.
So much for "ambiguity". AHAHAHAHAHA.
(PS, the series is now pretty explicitly built on a Buddhist framework. In Billiards it was completely up to interpretation; in Parade 01 it was heavily implied; this episode more or less confirms it [imo. I'll explain under cut].)
For reference:
- My thoughts on Parade 01
- My thoughts on Billiards
- - -
1. Framework confirmation
So on the cable car there were clearly other "bartender" sorts. I assume those are the arbiters for other religions/belief systems, because they didn't get off at the same stop.
The episode REALLY lampshades that this is the Buddhist stop by lingering on the icon above the entrance: a figure meditating on a lotus. (There is brief lotus imagery in the OP too, but lotus imagery is one of those easy "go-to" symbols that I usually tune out.)
But the icon above the entrance pretty much makes it explicit in my view.
The lotus also plays a huge role in other religions, sure, but given the context there's really no room for ambiguity. The lotus is practically the Buddhist equivalent of the Catholic cross.
(The swastika is indeed a common Buddhist symbol, but it is not an IDENTIFYING symbol of the religion.)
That said, I'm gonna have to rewatch this next week to get a better idea of the overall layout of the setting.
2. Eyes, Names
Decim and Nona have the creepy eyes. Clavis keeps his eyes shut (and doesn't have the number theme -- but he's the elevator operator rather than one of the bar employees). Unnamed new assistant chick has normal eyes. We have yet to see Quin's eyes.
Time to go examine the OP.
No, in fact, I went ahead to look at the character profiles on the site...
* "Decim" (10) is in charge of the 15th floor. (Quindecim)
* "Nona" (9) is the boss of "Decim" and "Ginti" (20 -- eta: specifically the "tens' place" in twenty). She lives on floor 90 (Nonaginta)
* "Ginti" (hasn't shown up yet) is in charge of the 20th floor (Viginti)
* "Quin" (5) is indeed in charge of memories
Characters without the number theming:
* Clavis: the elevator operator.
* Castora (hasn't shown up yet so may be incorrect romanization): well, from her description does "front desk"/organizational type duties but there may be a better way to describe this (she's not explicitly front desk)
* Okrus (my half-assed romanization): old dude closest to "God". Ranks above Nona. Manager of the entire building it seems? And may be the one who created the arbitration system.
And then two random normals (presumably): nameless girl, and a mysterious high school teen.
10, 9, and 5 are all significant numbers in East Asian/Buddhist thinking. I need more digestion time to figure out what it might mean.
(Nine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/108_%28number%29#Buddhism, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9_%28number%29#Chinese_culture, nine in general is a lucky number)
Apparently clavis="glossary"/guide, okay I guess that works, since he takes you to the different floors.
Castora may be Castra (castle)? I'll have to wait for official subs.
Okrus is NOT Orcus, but it is just a single kana (syllable) swap... I get Oculus if I google the actual kana in fact. "Eye" -- I guess that makes sense since he oversees everything supposedly.
I feel like now that we know Decim is the bartender and Quin is the memory lady, it should be a lot easier to pinpoint the symbolic meaning of the numbers. I'm still pretty sure 10 stands for the ten spiritual realms of Buddhist philosophy, but with the addition of "Ginti" I'm less certain. (Then again "ginti" itself is also "ten" really. So maybe we should read it as "the second ten" rather than as "twenty"?)
"Five" though I definitely begin to think is a reference to the skandhas.
And definitely don't think the eyes represent the Four Noble Truths anymore. I have suspicions, but... not really willing to commit at this stage. But it does lead into my next thought, which is...
3. The fallibility of the arbiters
So previously, I questioned if the arbiters were actually actively judging or if they were simply observers. This episode clearly establishes the answer as the former.
OTOH, some peculiarities:
- We see that it's possible for "mistakes" to be made. Decim feels that he's made an incorrect judgment in sending the man off to be reincarnated and the woman to the void.
(The implication is that the void is the less desirable outcome. However, as mentioned, I still have reason to believe that this is a mistaken view. And IMO Nona's reactions support my reading.)
- If the material from Billiards is still in play, this doesn't explain anything about the "predetermined" aspect of the games.
(I am basically 99% sure I'm correct about my karma interpretation of Billiards.)
- I have a very strong suspicion that if the bar is "Buddhist hell" as I suspected post-Billiards... the arbiters themselves are also being judged. (They speak as if they are not human -- and in [Mahayana] Buddhist cosmology, there are non-human entities who are not necessarily good or evil, but nonetheless also subject to karmic ties and the cycle of reincarnation.
Nona's reactions are particularly interesting: Decim thinks he's made a mistake, but Nona has a more neutral view of it. And her reading of the man at the end (destined for unhappiness no matter what happened because of his inability to trust) was pretty much my reading of it, though I hadn't talked about it much because I considered it irrelevant on my first watch.
Thinking about it now, though, of course it's relevant. I discussed the wife's karma in my post on Parade 01, but that inability to trust? That's part of HIS karma.
4. The void revisited, and "mu"/"wu"
This time I paid attention to the term used, and I'm pretty sure it's
虚無 (kyo-mu)
And this is one of the reasons I'm still convinced there is nothing negative about this outcome, even though it's not sunyata (which as I said is 空)
But it uses the other two related terms I also talked about. The 虛空 that is used to describe the vast space to which true Buddhist wisdom is compared -- and the famous "mu" (Chinese wu) used in the riddle to explain the essence of Buddha-nature.
SO, for the first time, I'm going to discuss the Mu koan (according to my own shallow understanding of it, which is nonetheless probably better than reading random essays on it).
The gist of it:
One day, a monk asked his teacher if dogs possess Buddha-nature. The teacher answered "Wu".
Wu literally means "no" in most secular contexts. As I mentioned, the etymological meaning of the character is simply a negation. But therein lies the riddle. Because one of the basic tenets of Buddhism is that YES, ALL CONSCIOUS BEINGS POSSESS THE POTENTIAL FOR TRANSCENDENCE.
That's the first hint to the riddle: why on earth would the monk ask his teacher something he already knew the answer to, something literally as basic as 1+1=2?
The second hint is the answer itself. "Wu". No further explanation or clarification. Just "wu".
The very oversimplified solution: even the concept of Buddha-nature is itself an artificial construct.
Only in "nothing" does the truth lie.
eta: After double-checking the term -- I should be fair and note that kyo-mu in Japanese also refers specifically to moral nihilism. (NOT general nihilism, which is actually referred to by the loan word.) Chinese also uses "xu wu" as a general label for nihilism.
As Buddhist philosophy is OFTEN misunderstood as a form of nihilism, this was what I meant when I originally said that I didn't believe the show was 100% Buddhist. I am not sure what, exactly, they're going for.
But either way, my main takeaway remains unchanged: it is incorrect to be placing value judgments on the two outcomes. Therefore, although we can take certain things as "objective truth": the guests' memories and the rules of the bar -- we shouldn't be assuming that the bartenders are correct in their interpretation of the rules either.
- - -
tl;dr -- After having gotten used to shows in which no solid answers are EVER given... I'm still sitting here kinda stunned that I was proved right for once? LOL
That said, there are still details I'm unsure about, and I can't imagine where the show will head next (unless I'm right about one of my less-supported theories/guesses).
comments at the original Dreamwidth post
- Okay, the flowers are obvious funerary imagery right? But the tree bothers me.
- 15th floor. Yeah, figured we'd see the number 15 cropping up again. Too bad it's not 10 floors, that would be easier to understand
- Hmm they're the only ones who get off at this stop (and note the lotus imagery) -- This is the Buddhist stop then? and the other bartenders have their own afterlife stops?
- "Decim" though -- is that the guy's name? there's my number 10 :P
- Nona and Clavis. Clavis Idk but isn't Nona nine? And ahaha yeah that's his name. So now we have Mr. Ten and Ms. Nine
- Awwwwww ACTUAL EXPLANATIONS. <3
- Quin. So Ms. Five? Sends memories. Hmmmm.
- Oh there are the puppets. Decim's responsible for them.
- OMG I love how we're now seeing all the behind-the-scenes stuff. Ahahahahaha.
(I was totes right that this wasn't intended to be ambiguous. Ha.)
- That said, now I have no idea where they're gonna take the rest of this series...
- AHAHAHA OMG I WAS SO RIGHT. Fuck. Do I get to rub it in? XD
- That said, I'm still not convinced the void is a negative result. "Decim" seems to understand less than Nona, so I guess that nixes any idea of the numbers being some sort of ranking.
(Plus IMO this contradicts some of the implied characterization in Billiards -- but of course Billiards is only the prototype version.)
- Hmm so I think the assistants are temporary. But given Decim's doubts, I have suspicions....... I also start to think the eyes have major implications after all (Note: Clavis doesn't open his eyes)
(yeps "three months" apparently?)
- - -
OK... so for me that wasn't a VERY helpful episode, but I TOTALLY GET TO GLOAT NOW.
So much for "ambiguity". AHAHAHAHAHA.
(PS, the series is now pretty explicitly built on a Buddhist framework. In Billiards it was completely up to interpretation; in Parade 01 it was heavily implied; this episode more or less confirms it [imo. I'll explain under cut].)
For reference:
- My thoughts on Parade 01
- My thoughts on Billiards
- - -
1. Framework confirmation
So on the cable car there were clearly other "bartender" sorts. I assume those are the arbiters for other religions/belief systems, because they didn't get off at the same stop.
The episode REALLY lampshades that this is the Buddhist stop by lingering on the icon above the entrance: a figure meditating on a lotus. (There is brief lotus imagery in the OP too, but lotus imagery is one of those easy "go-to" symbols that I usually tune out.)
But the icon above the entrance pretty much makes it explicit in my view.
The lotus also plays a huge role in other religions, sure, but given the context there's really no room for ambiguity. The lotus is practically the Buddhist equivalent of the Catholic cross.
(The swastika is indeed a common Buddhist symbol, but it is not an IDENTIFYING symbol of the religion.)
That said, I'm gonna have to rewatch this next week to get a better idea of the overall layout of the setting.
2. Eyes, Names
Decim and Nona have the creepy eyes. Clavis keeps his eyes shut (and doesn't have the number theme -- but he's the elevator operator rather than one of the bar employees). Unnamed new assistant chick has normal eyes. We have yet to see Quin's eyes.
Time to go examine the OP.
No, in fact, I went ahead to look at the character profiles on the site...
* "Decim" (10) is in charge of the 15th floor. (Quindecim)
* "Nona" (9) is the boss of "Decim" and "Ginti" (20 -- eta: specifically the "tens' place" in twenty). She lives on floor 90 (Nonaginta)
* "Ginti" (hasn't shown up yet) is in charge of the 20th floor (Viginti)
* "Quin" (5) is indeed in charge of memories
Characters without the number theming:
* Clavis: the elevator operator.
* Castora (hasn't shown up yet so may be incorrect romanization): well, from her description does "front desk"/organizational type duties but there may be a better way to describe this (she's not explicitly front desk)
* Okrus (my half-assed romanization): old dude closest to "God". Ranks above Nona. Manager of the entire building it seems? And may be the one who created the arbitration system.
And then two random normals (presumably): nameless girl, and a mysterious high school teen.
10, 9, and 5 are all significant numbers in East Asian/Buddhist thinking. I need more digestion time to figure out what it might mean.
(Nine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/108_%28number%29#Buddhism, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9_%28number%29#Chinese_culture, nine in general is a lucky number)
Apparently clavis="glossary"/guide, okay I guess that works, since he takes you to the different floors.
Castora may be Castra (castle)? I'll have to wait for official subs.
Okrus is NOT Orcus, but it is just a single kana (syllable) swap... I get Oculus if I google the actual kana in fact. "Eye" -- I guess that makes sense since he oversees everything supposedly.
I feel like now that we know Decim is the bartender and Quin is the memory lady, it should be a lot easier to pinpoint the symbolic meaning of the numbers. I'm still pretty sure 10 stands for the ten spiritual realms of Buddhist philosophy, but with the addition of "Ginti" I'm less certain. (Then again "ginti" itself is also "ten" really. So maybe we should read it as "the second ten" rather than as "twenty"?)
"Five" though I definitely begin to think is a reference to the skandhas.
And definitely don't think the eyes represent the Four Noble Truths anymore. I have suspicions, but... not really willing to commit at this stage. But it does lead into my next thought, which is...
3. The fallibility of the arbiters
So previously, I questioned if the arbiters were actually actively judging or if they were simply observers. This episode clearly establishes the answer as the former.
OTOH, some peculiarities:
- We see that it's possible for "mistakes" to be made. Decim feels that he's made an incorrect judgment in sending the man off to be reincarnated and the woman to the void.
(The implication is that the void is the less desirable outcome. However, as mentioned, I still have reason to believe that this is a mistaken view. And IMO Nona's reactions support my reading.)
- If the material from Billiards is still in play, this doesn't explain anything about the "predetermined" aspect of the games.
(I am basically 99% sure I'm correct about my karma interpretation of Billiards.)
- I have a very strong suspicion that if the bar is "Buddhist hell" as I suspected post-Billiards... the arbiters themselves are also being judged. (They speak as if they are not human -- and in [Mahayana] Buddhist cosmology, there are non-human entities who are not necessarily good or evil, but nonetheless also subject to karmic ties and the cycle of reincarnation.
Nona's reactions are particularly interesting: Decim thinks he's made a mistake, but Nona has a more neutral view of it. And her reading of the man at the end (destined for unhappiness no matter what happened because of his inability to trust) was pretty much my reading of it, though I hadn't talked about it much because I considered it irrelevant on my first watch.
Thinking about it now, though, of course it's relevant. I discussed the wife's karma in my post on Parade 01, but that inability to trust? That's part of HIS karma.
4. The void revisited, and "mu"/"wu"
This time I paid attention to the term used, and I'm pretty sure it's
虚無 (kyo-mu)
And this is one of the reasons I'm still convinced there is nothing negative about this outcome, even though it's not sunyata (which as I said is 空)
But it uses the other two related terms I also talked about. The 虛空 that is used to describe the vast space to which true Buddhist wisdom is compared -- and the famous "mu" (Chinese wu) used in the riddle to explain the essence of Buddha-nature.
SO, for the first time, I'm going to discuss the Mu koan (according to my own shallow understanding of it, which is nonetheless probably better than reading random essays on it).
The gist of it:
One day, a monk asked his teacher if dogs possess Buddha-nature. The teacher answered "Wu".
Wu literally means "no" in most secular contexts. As I mentioned, the etymological meaning of the character is simply a negation. But therein lies the riddle. Because one of the basic tenets of Buddhism is that YES, ALL CONSCIOUS BEINGS POSSESS THE POTENTIAL FOR TRANSCENDENCE.
That's the first hint to the riddle: why on earth would the monk ask his teacher something he already knew the answer to, something literally as basic as 1+1=2?
The second hint is the answer itself. "Wu". No further explanation or clarification. Just "wu".
The very oversimplified solution: even the concept of Buddha-nature is itself an artificial construct.
Only in "nothing" does the truth lie.
eta: After double-checking the term -- I should be fair and note that kyo-mu in Japanese also refers specifically to moral nihilism. (NOT general nihilism, which is actually referred to by the loan word.) Chinese also uses "xu wu" as a general label for nihilism.
As Buddhist philosophy is OFTEN misunderstood as a form of nihilism, this was what I meant when I originally said that I didn't believe the show was 100% Buddhist. I am not sure what, exactly, they're going for.
But either way, my main takeaway remains unchanged: it is incorrect to be placing value judgments on the two outcomes. Therefore, although we can take certain things as "objective truth": the guests' memories and the rules of the bar -- we shouldn't be assuming that the bartenders are correct in their interpretation of the rules either.
- - -
tl;dr -- After having gotten used to shows in which no solid answers are EVER given... I'm still sitting here kinda stunned that I was proved right for once? LOL
That said, there are still details I'm unsure about, and I can't imagine where the show will head next (unless I'm right about one of my less-supported theories/guesses).
comments at the original Dreamwidth post