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So I'm sitting here trying to sign on to my school website to do homework, and it won't let me. So I decided to start on a little project I've wanted to do for some time now. This is part-essay and part musing on my part. It may or may not fit in with your head-canon or even historical knowledge. On both parts I am open to increasing my own
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1) First of all, it was partially a joke. I suppose that someone who dislikes the pairing can't see it as serious. But you mention Belarus--she doesn't say husband. She says "Let's get married", implying that they're not married. However, I would say it's closer to Sweden saying Finland is his wife. Lithuania might not agree that he and Russia were together. So in that sense it's as likely as Sweden and Finland being a couple just from that.
2) You must not have read where I listed all the rebellions against the Soviet. The Forest Brothers were the biggest deal about that. I didn't ignore them. Lithuania fought with Poland and today things are tense but they're friends. Lithuania fought with Russia a lot, and they're on level terms today. So it can be the same. Just because you like someone doesn't mean you want to live in their house.
3) Since you don't like the pairing I'm assuming you take things out of context because of that. Nations in my headcanon take on the thoughts and wishes of their people. They're not completely controlled by them, but what their people wish for is what they feel is right. Also, the Russian minority has nothing to do with their actual relationship. My point was that Lithuania gets along with RUSSIA, not their own minority, better than the other two.
4) I don't discuss the seriousness as much because I don't think it's a big part of their relationship. Russia is possessive, yes. Also, if you notice, I mentioned other countries and their wars and forgiveness. France was devastated by Germany, even Italy was devastated by Germany. Lithuania had been devastated by Russia. As I said I do not believe that all his scars are from Russia.
I never said it was okay, and once again I think your bias is because of this. And we're not talking about a real life abusive relationship or anything like that. I don't see Russia as abusive. IF it happened, I see it as a one time occurrence. Was it horrible? Yes. Right? No.
A strong character is a character who doesn't give up. Lithuania was not "used". He chose whichever side would help him in history, even siding with France, and Germany, and of course Poland. Just because I believe in a relationship between the two of them doesn't mean I think Lithuania wouldn't leave him to be independent when he felt like he had to.
Just because you can't see where the canon trust and even affection is, doesn't mean others can't. Wars can't be counted very well because almost every country has had them. So we're basically talking about Russia being possessive? Which well, he seems to be. Even kind of a stalker. But Lithuania likes Belarus, who breaks his fingers. That doesn't mean he's not strong. And like I said, IF he was whipped once, well not only would it be long ago but all I'm saying is that it's not much worse than being shot or some such in a war, I guess? I don't know the specifics of how wars take their toll on nations.
Whew. Yes. I am up for debate. But like I said I won't take criticism for the sake of criticism just because my pairing isn't liked. Not most of your debate was that way, but I've told you my feelings on them now.
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1) Yeah, alright, I get that. I don't agree, since I still think it didn't mean anything - certainly not that their relationship was more canon than another - but I see what you mean.
2) I did read it, actually. I just have problems with your argument brushing all these rebellions off as 'it doesn't mean he doesn't like him'. Normally I would agree - not relationship is perfect, but I think that, coupled with the other problems, it does show an unwillingness from Lithuania to be treated the way Russia treats him. I also don't think they're on level terms - why do you think they are?
3) I'm sorry, but I think you are the one taking things out of context. I just don't get where you seem to think that Lithuania gets along better with Russia - I said that it may seem this way to an outsider, because they have less dealings with Russia. Just a quick look at Lithuanian media, you will rapidly see a trend of ressentment against Russia, just like all the others. Lately, for example, they have been putting emphasis on how Soviet Russia was as bad a Nazi Germany. The fact that it's still discussed today does show that while they're not really fighting, they don't get along that smoothly either.
As for the characters - if you want to take history into account, you can't ignore this. I don't see either where, in the strips, Lithuania seemed to be closer to Russia. Yes, Russia likes him more, but I just don't see where it's supposed to be mutual.
4) See, I think this is where our opinions differ the most. I think the seriousness of what Russia has done is definitely the most important part. They would have a lot of issues to deal with before becoming anything near romantic. I think the problem with your point of view -and, as I identify a lot with Lithuania in this situation, so I admit I may be biased this way- is that you do not seem to see it from Lithuania's point of view. He was definitely used - if he sided with Russia against Poland, it was because he had no choice. And what did he gain from this? He lost his independance. Russia had to tear him away from America's place - Lithuania did not follow willingly. Yes, he stayed with him for a long time, but it's been shown that if Lithuania were to try to be independant, Russia would sweep in and bring him back to him. Where has Lithuania consented to any of this?
The argument of 'oh, he did it only once, it's not so bad' doesn't work unless the one who hit/whipped/hurt the other seriously owns up to what he did, and the choice to continue the relationship is made by the victim, no blackmail or manipulation influencing his decision. That's not what happened in Russia's case. Lithuania has always been in a lower place than Russia since the Commonwealth fell, and you can't say that Russia didn't use this power to his advantage.
Lithuania's a strong character, but he has been powerless for a long time. Being strong doesn't mean you can't be in a situation when you have no advantage at all, like Lithuania has been for a long time. For goodness' sake, Lithuania first came to be with him because Russia beat him and took him from his home! Being possessive and stalkerish is a bad trait, not a cute and romantic one - it's very important issue when the possessive one has such power over the other. A relationship like that can't be healthy unless those issues are resolved. Now Liet is independant, so it's somewhat more likely - but they would have have to tear down the whole mess that was their relationship before and start on new grounds.
It's not criticism just because I don't like the pairing, but I do see serious flaws in the justification some people use. Now, I understand it's just fandom and your kink's your kink, but, as I said, I like to debate. :)
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That being said, you're also wrong about where you said Lithuania was used. If anyone used anyone, Lithuania used Russia during the Lithuanian-Polish war. Russia's only advantage was moving through territory. Even after they were pushed out of the territory, they refused to recognize Poland's annexation of it. That was of no benefit to Russia at all, only Lithuania. Yes they took it back later and then took Lithuania into the Soviet. But that doesn't change that in that instance he was not used.
I highly disagree with you about Russia not owning up. The character Russia had full opportunity to own up to what he did. As I wrote in my character description of Ivan, I don't think he's the type to enjoy violence. I think he was sorry for what he did, in one of his moments of his "heart falling out", and he said so. Lithuania, being strong, what I believe is that he made the choice to forgive him. Now, of course we have the wars and being forced to live with Russia. Though I don't agree that he's technically always been lower, since a key of the Soviet was that everyone shared and were 'equal', at least those in power.
Possessive and stalkerish is a bad trait yes. However out opinions differ on what's not cute and romantic. I don't think either of those are romantic but that doesn't change that I think Ivan can still be cute as is shown in strips like the one with Lithuania sleeping on his shoulder. He also has a heart which can feel pain, as he cries before Bloody Sunday. It is my belief that Lithuania can recognize these things and be fond of them.
My interpretation is different from your interpretation. I do not like rapist sadistic Russia. That doesn't mean that their relationship is always good and healthy, non-complicated, and riddled with pot holes and bad situations. Not at all. But I LIKE that kind of complicated, and so do many others. (Unfortunately some also like sadistic rapist Russia, so I'm not the worst of the RussLiet fandom). So I won't defend myself or anything, and I'm not clueless. I'm not saying you know, everything's all fluffy and romantic with them. But like I said, I like what I like.
I'm curious though, is it Russia you don't like? Don't need a detailed answer or anything, just seems to me you don't like him. You obviously like Lithuania. Once again not asking for details, but if you would tell me your chosen otp?
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I don't think the character Russia enjoys violence either - but I think he doesn't realise that what he does is bad, which fits with his naive and childish personality. But his past is, to me, no excuse at all.All abusers have issues - doesn't mean they have the right to keep doing it. It's sad, yes, but I don't think the solution is finding someone who will play into Russia's childishness. He needs to get help, and considering Lithuania's situation towards Russia, I think it's too dangerous for him to get involved before the main issues are resolved.
I cannot write much more as it's getting very late and I have to go to bed, eh. I may write more tomorrow, if you still want to debate. However, I can't help but notice you seem to want to dismiss my opinion simply based on the fact that I don't like the pairing. Maybe I should have phrased that better in my first post - I don't like the pairing being portrayed as romantic because of issues regarding abuse I find problematic and, yes, my own experiences with abuse, I admit. I do like both characters, and I have read fic centered around them that I have loved (I could even link you some, maybe you've read them, I'd be curious to hear what you think!). I think Russia (and Russian histoy in general) is very fascinating, but I'm having trouble seeing the character in any relationship with another country/character that has been less than his equal for most of their relationship.
As for 'chosen otp', I don't believe in those. ;) I'm usually very open, ahah.
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I'm a psychology major and come from a household of heavy abuse. Just so you know that I understand the shyness from such situations. However it's been my experience to live with some situations and see people change, without... I don't know how to say it without getting personal. I agree that Russia needs to get help. Where we seem to disagree is that you think it should be by someone equal with him, and I think it should be someone who's been under him (possibly). I think he feels guilt for things he's done even if he didn't think they were bad at the time. So to me I see his 'healing' as knowing he'd not hated for everything.
Russia seems so guarded, like everyone hates him. He keeps to himself and enjoys the chaos of the Allies when they bicker. He sits back and says he wants them all to beg for mercy, or something like that. I think he holds grudges that they are all "friends" who can bicker, and yet he's treated as scary and imposing. Which let's face it, he is, but I think sometimes it makes him lonely. I guess to me Lithuania is the white to Russia's black. Someone who has seen the worst of him but is still there. Like I said, without reading choice pieces of my work it would be impossible for you to understand my personal belief on how they're together romantically.
On that note I also like other pairings with Lithuania. Including LietPol, however, I do not like when people ignore the bad history between them as well. Even the Commonwealth forced a Lithuanian civil war, and in the strips Poland is shown to be selfish and careless a lot. I would even say Poland's a bit of a bully (though not abusive). Well until the Vilnius conflict, but that's like I said, in the war catagory that Hetalia almost dismisses. I will not say any pairing is "better" than the other. Except if you throw pairings at me like JapanBelarus which make me go, what?
Oh yes, and I do believe that Lithuania was used. I was simply stating an instance where he used Russia instead, and who can blame him? XD Yes, it's dangerous for Lithuania to try and help Russia, everything considered. But to me it is a part of Lithuania's strong care for others to want to help the damage that Russia has. Even in doing this I believe that he knows how to protect himself when he has to. I'm not saying he runs to Russia all the time or wants to live with him. I'm saying, in my like of the pairing, he wants Russia to understand they can be together--in their own houses. Which seems to be finally happening... some few hundred years later. x.x
Hmm, did I miss anything? Oh yes I don't think Lithuania plays into Russia's childishness at all. That's why he's bluntly honest with him. It's why he tries to not do what he says. I'm just saying it doesn't mean Lithuania can't like his gentle side? Oh yes, and I think you like my answers to your comments better because I wrote them to make sense to a person who doesn't follow the pairing. To one who does my post probably stands alone to make since because some things are unsaid. But that is why I wrote the character studies separately from the coupling.
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