In the sense of "even the very thought freaks me out": with [info]kindkit on this one. Martha/Master. You know, I read a fic that made it work. I'd never have thought it possible, but... it was a DW/LoM crossover, where Sam was the Master and slowly began regaining his memories - Martha was sent back in time by Jack because the Doctor had gone missing. [There were explanations for how he'd found out about 'Sam' etc] The clever bit was that the Sam parts of the Master had integrated, and so he (for the first time) really had people he genuinely cared about (shades of chipped!Spike!) - oh and he and Martha pretended that they were married to explain why she suddenly turned up. (Their bickering was *fantastic*! And Gene...)
It was the sort of fic I usually avoid - it was by a first time writer without a beta and she so, *so* needed one, I kept wincing - but all the character stuff was *excellent* and I couldn't put it down. (It became rather cracktastic towards the end, but still... inspired writing.) I can find it for you if you like,
( ... )
Errr. Seeing as decades as Yana - or at the very least 17 years, if we go only by the time we have Chantho to stand witness for - did not stop him from killing Chantho, undoubtedly the person Yana cared for and was attached to most, with no more hesitation or regret than, well, killing an insect, I very much doubt some years/months as Sam Tyler would make a difference. So I can't even believe in this premise. Also, I don't see Martha/Sam Tyler (with Sam as Sam), either, though this might be coloured by some hostility towards Sam due to the ending of s2, admittedly. And frankly, I can't see Martha being anything but revolted at the thought of even touching the Master. Some hostility is entirely without UST and with reasonable revulsion for general mass murder and the personal degredation and enslavement of one's family. I can't see her look at him and not think of Tish, Francine and Cliff, barely recovering from what he did to them. If you want Spike comparisons - if Spike, instead of protecting Dawn, had ever harmed her or Joyce,
( ... )
Seeing as decades as Yana - or at the very least 17 years, if we go only by the time we have Chantho to stand witness for - did not stop him from killing Chantho, undoubtedly the person Yana cared for and was attached to most, with no more hesitation or regret than, well, killing an insect, I very much doubt some years/months as Sam Tyler would make a difference. So I can't even believe in this premise. You could try reading the first chapter? (Zero Martha, just Sam & the gang.) Dunno if it'll change your mind, but it works for *me*... ETA: Also, it is of course crack. Which is why it is addictive! ;)
Anyway, I understand squicks - I cannot read Spike/Xander. At all, ever. (Even though I can see where people come from, I just... can't.)
Actually, speaking of Martha have you read this fic yet: Sew It Up, But You Still See The Tear. Martha FitB between LotT and the Sontarans. Really excellent!
You're definitely not alone - I'm anti Spike/Xander as well, though it's more in a "can't see it, and why on earth would either want to?" fashion than in a "ew, no way!" fashion.*g*
Not that Spike is ever captain of team Sensible, Healthy Relationship, but I can't really see it being good for them, much less get the mechanisms behind an attraction there? 'They're both snarky and funny and romantically unlucky' does not justification for a pairing make.
Plus, Spike has an involving, dynamic emotional arc with Buffy (and yeah, I loved it, which biases me, but meh). Xander has great stuff going on with Anya. Where does teh boykissing come in against a big old backdrop of avowed interest in these characters? Their ship would have to usurp all that terrain, and that's a challenge even for a pairing that has more obvious interesting character juxtapositions.
I'm not inherently drawn to Spike/Xander, but some of the best BtVS fic I've read is that pairing (by Anna S., wiseacress, mpoetess...). You can get a good snarky buddyslash thing going between those two.
I think most of the classics of the pairing start around season four--before Xander got heavy with Anya, back when there was serious speculation/foreshadowing that he'd turn out to be gay instead of Willow (which might've happened if Seth Green hadn't left). And back before Spike had anything for Buffy, when he was living in Xander's basement and the writers didn't know what to do with him. There was a lot of slashy subtext between those two back then. (*remembers a time when every other fanfic incorporated the phrase "nummy treat."*)
Given Xander's suspicious anxiety and tendencies towards amusing misunderstandings around Larry, I think just about anyone who'd been told at the beginning of BtVS4 that one of the regulars would have a same-sex relationship by the end of the season would have gone for Xander (apart from the ones who'd have picked Giles).
See, buddyslash, while ostensibly fine, does nothing for me. My problem, I know. Though for some reason Xander/Oz, which I have never before considered, sounds cute?
See, I was feeling Spuffy subtext back in season two with the pumpkin patch and 'bay likes to play' in Halloween--which, come to think, is the line of subtext the writers picked up on when they refer to having 'realized' Spike was in love with Buffy, so maybe fandom!thinking didn't entirely lead me astray? So I think I didn't read the S4 subtext a lot of people see for v. understandable reasons b/c I was busy raising a big eyebrow at like, Something Blue and wondering if they were gonna just try to get away with that lampshading and leaving it at that.
My pleasure. :) I also feel duty-bound to point you towards Stupid Human Tricks, quite possibly the best 'young Jack' story I've ever come across. Fills in the blanks beautifully, showing how he became the man he is. (He's at university, post fighting in the war, pre-Time Agency.) Also bits of the TW team.
Some hostility is entirely without UST and with reasonable revulsion for general mass murder
*nods a lot* The things the Master does in New Who are so extremely awful that it would be not only fucked up but also morally wrong on some level, for anyone to love him after that. It's like being in love with Stalin or Hitler or Pol Pot. And I say this as a huge fan of Doctor/Master. The Doctor gets something of a free pass due to their history together, but even then, I'd really like to see fic where the Doctor's love and forgiveness are combined with a bit more thought about whether a genocidal monster actually deserves love and forgiveness.
The Doctor gets something of a free pass due to their history together, but even then, I'd really like to see fic where the Doctor's love and forgiveness are combined with a bit more thought about whether a genocidal monster actually deserves love and forgiveness.
*nods* Especially since, you know, in terms of Old and New canon combined one can make a case that at least Four and Five at the end of Planet of Fire had reached the point where they thought what the Master did was just too much (in addition to the whole accidental quarter of the universe destruction in Logopolis, there is a lot of very intentional murder in just about every episode he shows up in starting with Deadly Assassin), and there was nothing left but to let him die/kill him. After Five lets him burn, this changes again, presumably due to the guilt resulting from that, plus by the time he's Ten, the Doctor has committed genocide a couple of times himself, starting from the time he's Seven. Always to save a greater number of people, of course, but he still did it,
( ... )
You know, I read a fic that made it work. I'd never have thought it possible, but... it was a DW/LoM crossover, where Sam was the Master and slowly began regaining his memories - Martha was sent back in time by Jack because the Doctor had gone missing. [There were explanations for how he'd found out about 'Sam' etc] The clever bit was that the Sam parts of the Master had integrated, and so he (for the first time) really had people he genuinely cared about (shades of chipped!Spike!) - oh and he and Martha pretended that they were married to explain why she suddenly turned up. (Their bickering was *fantastic*! And Gene...)
It was the sort of fic I usually avoid - it was by a first time writer without a beta and she so, *so* needed one, I kept wincing - but all the character stuff was *excellent* and I couldn't put it down. (It became rather cracktastic towards the end, but still... inspired writing.) I can find it for you if you like, ( ... )
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You could try reading the first chapter? (Zero Martha, just Sam & the gang.) Dunno if it'll change your mind, but it works for *me*... ETA: Also, it is of course crack. Which is why it is addictive! ;)
Anyway, I understand squicks - I cannot read Spike/Xander. At all, ever. (Even though I can see where people come from, I just... can't.)
Actually, speaking of Martha have you read this fic yet: Sew It Up, But You Still See The Tear. Martha FitB between LotT and the Sontarans. Really excellent!
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...sorry. *cough* Just had to bogart your thread to agree.
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Plus, Spike has an involving, dynamic emotional arc with Buffy (and yeah, I loved it, which biases me, but meh). Xander has great stuff going on with Anya. Where does teh boykissing come in against a big old backdrop of avowed interest in these characters? Their ship would have to usurp all that terrain, and that's a challenge even for a pairing that has more obvious interesting character juxtapositions.
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I think most of the classics of the pairing start around season four--before Xander got heavy with Anya, back when there was serious speculation/foreshadowing that he'd turn out to be gay instead of Willow (which might've happened if Seth Green hadn't left). And back before Spike had anything for Buffy, when he was living in Xander's basement and the writers didn't know what to do with him. There was a lot of slashy subtext between those two back then. (*remembers a time when every other fanfic incorporated the phrase "nummy treat."*)
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*cough* Ethan *cough*
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See, I was feeling Spuffy subtext back in season two with the pumpkin patch and 'bay likes to play' in Halloween--which, come to think, is the line of subtext the writers picked up on when they refer to having 'realized' Spike was in love with Buffy, so maybe fandom!thinking didn't entirely lead me astray? So I think I didn't read the S4 subtext a lot of people see for v. understandable reasons b/c I was busy raising a big eyebrow at like, Something Blue and wondering if they were gonna just try to get away with that lampshading and leaving it at that.
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*nods a lot* The things the Master does in New Who are so extremely awful that it would be not only fucked up but also morally wrong on some level, for anyone to love him after that. It's like being in love with Stalin or Hitler or Pol Pot. And I say this as a huge fan of Doctor/Master. The Doctor gets something of a free pass due to their history together, but even then, I'd really like to see fic where the Doctor's love and forgiveness are combined with a bit more thought about whether a genocidal monster actually deserves love and forgiveness.
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*nods* Especially since, you know, in terms of Old and New canon combined one can make a case that at least Four and Five at the end of Planet of Fire had reached the point where they thought what the Master did was just too much (in addition to the whole accidental quarter of the universe destruction in Logopolis, there is a lot of very intentional murder in just about every episode he shows up in starting with Deadly Assassin), and there was nothing left but to let him die/kill him. After Five lets him burn, this changes again, presumably due to the guilt resulting from that, plus by the time he's Ten, the Doctor has committed genocide a couple of times himself, starting from the time he's Seven. Always to save a greater number of people, of course, but he still did it, ( ... )
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