Religion and Politics

[secret_stuff]

I have been thinking more about issues of religion these days, and it is a subject that has always intrigued me. Perhaps the proximity of the election is highlighting it in the media more, but since I had always intended that one purpose of this journal would be to ramble on the subject of religion, what the heck

Comments

[overfreak]

Quite insightful of you. It actually outlines some of my rather unpopular stance on voting.

Any counter arguments regarding standing idly by are tricky at best because the concept is if you are not doing something about it, then you are allowing it, which is not exactly correct. Standing idly by is Saul holding the coats of the men that stoned Stephen. Likewise, Jesus wasn't standing idly by regarding the adulteress brought to him when he did not say stone her.

[secret_stuff]

That's a very good point as well. I think that also is something that is more generally American as opposed to be solely limited to Christians or any other group. We seem to want to put a lot of significance behind political affiliation, and we tend to give a lot of significance to the effects of pulling that lever in the voting booth, as if that, in and of itself, is a major accomplishment.

Of course, from the media perspective, I guess it is. They really do often fram it around just getting people to show up at the polls and voter registration as some herculean task.

So I guess discussion about just how much we are responsible for doing is a fair question. From a Christian perspective I think that maybe people focus on stuff like the election so much because the other considerations are a lot less comfortable at times.

[internofdoom]

There are faith traditions within the greater Christian community that actualy encourage political action for the concerp of the greater good. I can speak from experience from the Jesuit side of things. I think it was Arupe that first made a very public case for taking on the responsibility of power in order to effect positive social change. Now, this was aimed directly at poverty issues and social justice which is what Jesuits are all about, but philophicaly you can see how it could apply to political activism against abortion.

[secret_stuff]

Agreed. Obviously the Catholic Church, as a general rule, feels that is correct in many respects. The opinion presented above is purely my own

[internofdoom]

I actualy don't disagree with your main point at all. Your commentary is some of the most insightful I have ever seen on the topic. Absolute moral judgement and dogmatic adherence is not something Christ, in his association with the (at the time) dubious figures, endless forgiveness, and challenge against the established order, specificly acted in contrast to.

I was taking small issue with Jayson's point about action in faith traditions, I suppose. Not even really an issue really...just something that I felt should be pointed out.

Seriously though Nick, this reply and your original post are very well put indeed.

[secret_stuff]

Ah, sorry... I see what you were getting at now. The action vs inaction bit? I would say that my interpretation of Christianity is that it certainly calls for action. I suspect that most would agree more or less there, of course, exactly what constitutes the proper action is where things get sticky :-)

[overfreak]

Which was the point. What is the proper method of action is where things become a problem

[secret_stuff]

Thanks

[shinotenshi02]

Whatever it is that we do in Jesus' name, whether its donate some money to charity, volunteer our time, whatever it is... I think God expects it to be a /sacrifice./ And that means that if we're totally OK and comfortable with it... it really isn't a /sacrifice./ It needs to be a meaningful imposition on us, hence there is no objective standard. A $100,000 donation by a wealthy tycoon might not even be noticed by that person, where a $100 from a struggling person would be. A few hours a week of volunteer work might be just keeping a retired person busy, while it might be a real sacrifice for a single mother.I've since become...not-christian, as I'm mostly agnostic. I was raised very lazy-catholic, in part because when I was in England, I of course went to school there, and was actually in the ENGLISH school system. Which meant some part of religion, was just part of normal school life. So, I've grown up with bits and pieces of catholicism/christanity in my life

[secret_stuff]

You make an interesting point here, but I think you are looking at the other angle. There are two basic commandments - Love God, and Love your neighbor. The kind of sacrifice you describe goes to the first part of that equation. The tradition of lenten sacrifice is part of that.

However, that does nothing for the second part, which is helping your fellow human beings.

I may agree in some respects with Overfreak that there are some problems with the Catholic Church, but I do not discount the entirety of its doctrine, and one thing I agree with is that there is a necessity for good works. Just being a "good person" is insufficient unless that includes doing good for others. The old "hiding a light under a bushell" yadda yadda. It is that respect I was talking about with regard to sacrifice and being 'uncomfortable.'

[shinotenshi02]

Oh no, I wasn't discounting that part either. Again though, I think the point is 'be mindful'. Giving of yourself as it were, (loving thy neighbor) needen't necessarily be uncomfortable.

Sometimes it can just be reaching out to someone, giving them your time and attention--a small sacrifice, to be fair, but one none the less.

I suppose, for me, it's all about proportion. And yes, from the catholic viewpoint, being a good person alone isn't enough, in that sense... But that doesn't mean we also all need to be martyrs, too.

[secret_stuff]

Well, we can agree to disagree, but from reading the Gospel, I do not see that Jesus suggests that anything 'small' was what he was looking for. Also, there is a long way between being 'uncomfortable' and being a martyr :-p Uncomfortable is what, mildly put out? Small things can be enough to make someone uncomfortable, it all depends on the person I suppose.
(And this is just my theory anyway)
On several occassions Jesus tells his followers or those seeking his advice that they need to give up everything, be born again, etc.

Now, maybe I am overstating the case a bit. I suppose he also does suggest that doing even a little bit is a great thing too... but my impression isn't that there is a minimum we should aspire to. Also, I wouldn't say that if someone doesn't do a tremendous amount that they're bad or won't be rewarded. I just read "Love thy neighbor as thyself' as being a pretty high standard to aspire to.

[shinotenshi02]

Oh again, not disagreeing. Jesus DOES ask a lot. I just also was always taught that he'd love us for trying our best too, and sometimes the best you could do right then, was small rather than large.

*shrug*

[secret_stuff]

Agreed.

[secret_stuff]

Oh, there was one other thing I wanted to say on this point, since you brought up the sacrifice at Lent. This is a tradition that has evolved over the centuries, and inexorably it has evolved towards being more and more lenient

[shinotenshi02]

I am indeed familiar with Stations of the Cross. I've done them, as I've also Prayed the Rosary.

One could argue that so much of the church/Christianity, is ultimately adapting. If that becomes more 'lenient' as somethings become more difficult (not onorous--sometimes the two intertwine, but not always), it's not always practical to keep truly to the old ways.

*shrug* I am enjoying this discussion though, Nicholas. My mom goes with no meat on Fridays during lent, and does her best--even with her diabetes. She's liberal as a catholic, and surprisingly thoughtful about it all.