Religion and Politics

[secret_stuff]

I have been thinking more about issues of religion these days, and it is a subject that has always intrigued me. Perhaps the proximity of the election is highlighting it in the media more, but since I had always intended that one purpose of this journal would be to ramble on the subject of religion, what the heck

Comments

[shinotenshi02]

Whatever it is that we do in Jesus' name, whether its donate some money to charity, volunteer our time, whatever it is... I think God expects it to be a /sacrifice./ And that means that if we're totally OK and comfortable with it... it really isn't a /sacrifice./ It needs to be a meaningful imposition on us, hence there is no objective standard. A $100,000 donation by a wealthy tycoon might not even be noticed by that person, where a $100 from a struggling person would be. A few hours a week of volunteer work might be just keeping a retired person busy, while it might be a real sacrifice for a single mother.

I've since become...not-christian, as I'm mostly agnostic. I was raised very lazy-catholic, in part because when I was in England, I of course went to school there, and was actually in the ENGLISH school system. Which meant some part of religion, was just part of normal school life. So, I've grown up with bits and pieces of catholicism/christanity in my life.

To make this OT, and which is why I quoted your passage above, what I always thought, was that a sacrifice also shouldn't be 'painful' or even that uncomfortable, so much as it should make us 'think'. Be MINDFUL...as it were.

I did this once, when I was still actively practicing, for Lent. It was a very small sacrifice, in that I gave up chocolate milk for Lent. Not a huge deal, except that I'd always gotten it with my lunch at school. So, whenever I didn't have it, I would think--and remember why I was sacrificing it, and from that remember the purpose behind lent.

To me, that was what was important about a sacrifice--and was the impression I'd always gotten, so to speak. You start 'small', and make yourself think. From there, when you're mindful, you can become 'more' mindful, as it were.

*Shrug* Just my two cents. I'm enjoying reading all of this, btw.

[secret_stuff]

You make an interesting point here, but I think you are looking at the other angle. There are two basic commandments - Love God, and Love your neighbor. The kind of sacrifice you describe goes to the first part of that equation. The tradition of lenten sacrifice is part of that.

However, that does nothing for the second part, which is helping your fellow human beings.

I may agree in some respects with Overfreak that there are some problems with the Catholic Church, but I do not discount the entirety of its doctrine, and one thing I agree with is that there is a necessity for good works. Just being a "good person" is insufficient unless that includes doing good for others. The old "hiding a light under a bushell" yadda yadda. It is that respect I was talking about with regard to sacrifice and being 'uncomfortable.'

[shinotenshi02]

Oh no, I wasn't discounting that part either. Again though, I think the point is 'be mindful'. Giving of yourself as it were, (loving thy neighbor) needen't necessarily be uncomfortable.

Sometimes it can just be reaching out to someone, giving them your time and attention--a small sacrifice, to be fair, but one none the less.

I suppose, for me, it's all about proportion. And yes, from the catholic viewpoint, being a good person alone isn't enough, in that sense... But that doesn't mean we also all need to be martyrs, too.

[secret_stuff]

Well, we can agree to disagree, but from reading the Gospel, I do not see that Jesus suggests that anything 'small' was what he was looking for. Also, there is a long way between being 'uncomfortable' and being a martyr :-p Uncomfortable is what, mildly put out? Small things can be enough to make someone uncomfortable, it all depends on the person I suppose.
(And this is just my theory anyway)
On several occassions Jesus tells his followers or those seeking his advice that they need to give up everything, be born again, etc.

Now, maybe I am overstating the case a bit. I suppose he also does suggest that doing even a little bit is a great thing too... but my impression isn't that there is a minimum we should aspire to. Also, I wouldn't say that if someone doesn't do a tremendous amount that they're bad or won't be rewarded. I just read "Love thy neighbor as thyself' as being a pretty high standard to aspire to.

[shinotenshi02]

Oh again, not disagreeing. Jesus DOES ask a lot. I just also was always taught that he'd love us for trying our best too, and sometimes the best you could do right then, was small rather than large.

*shrug*

[secret_stuff]

Agreed.

[secret_stuff]

Oh, there was one other thing I wanted to say on this point, since you brought up the sacrifice at Lent. This is a tradition that has evolved over the centuries, and inexorably it has evolved towards being more and more lenient.

It originally involved 40 days of fasting (although the exact requirements of the fasting varied by location). Over time it got less and less strict, to the point that nowadays even something as simple as "abstain from meat on Fridays" is considered onerous. And by the way, I'm not tooting my own here, I've broken this rule, either accidentally or purposefully, on many an occassion.

You may or may not be familiar with the Stations of the Cross. Originally this was part of a pilgrimage to the Holy land, to visit the actual sites. After the Muslims recaptured the Holy Land and travel became far more perilous these were created by the Franciscans as a kind of substitute pilgrimage. I believe at first people still needed to travel to what was essentially a replica of the Holy Sepulchre, but eventually you could find Stations set up in just about any local parish. So a trip to the Holy Land gets replaced with a stroll around the local church :-p

[shinotenshi02]

I am indeed familiar with Stations of the Cross. I've done them, as I've also Prayed the Rosary.

One could argue that so much of the church/Christianity, is ultimately adapting. If that becomes more 'lenient' as somethings become more difficult (not onorous--sometimes the two intertwine, but not always), it's not always practical to keep truly to the old ways.

*shrug* I am enjoying this discussion though, Nicholas. My mom goes with no meat on Fridays during lent, and does her best--even with her diabetes. She's liberal as a catholic, and surprisingly thoughtful about it all.

[secret_stuff]

Well, my point though is that things are actually easier now than they were then :-p So it isn't like things are more difficult. Our standard of living compared to medieval europe is orders of magnitude better, despite what the Renn Festivals might like us to think :-)

But this is the key line I think you said: "...it's not always practical to keep truly to the old ways."

Consider that a moment. That is perfectly find if we are discussing whether or not we should put us as many Christmas decorations, or whether we really need to have a 30 pound turkey on Thanksgiving after the kids all move away, or other traditions. BUT if the "old ways" being referenced are religious mandates that God wants, that is something else entirely. If you believe that you are supposed to do X because God wants it, then that just doesn't go away or change for convenience sake, no?

[shinotenshi02]

Oh no disagreement. But then it gets into the other problem of just what/which are the ones God wants, and what aren't. A whole other kettle of fish, that one.

[secret_stuff]

Exactly, that is the primary conundrum.