Like everyone else I was !!!!!! about the new trailers. I'm loving the dynamic between characters and the promise of a bit of a darker turn but mostly I'm excited about more River
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I think - somewhat horrifingly - that maybe since her storage thingy was almost out of power the Doctor didn't actually manage upload all of River to the Matrix CAL. It's either that or her decided to try something different for once, since children weren't exactly compatible with her lifestyle and etc. It'd probably drive her mad after a while, though.
I think - somewhat horrifingly - that maybe since her storage thingy was almost out of power the Doctor didn't actually manage upload all of River to the Matrix CAL
That is horrifying. It's like the paving stone all over again. "Sorry, couldn't get it all but hey, at least got the important bits!"
I'm much happier with the notion of her trying a new adventure for a while, but yes, it will bore her to death in no time. Unless she hijacks the mainframe and turns CAL into *her* companion.
That is horrifying. It's like the paving stone all over again. "Sorry, couldn't get it all but hey, at least got the important bits!"
*shudders* I mean in IRL terms I think that it was just a mad reach for a "happy ending" where she's not really dead somehow, and we didn't yet know what a BAMF she is. But that doesn't make it any less creepy.
Now I want to write even creepier fic where the Doctor uploaded her to the TARDIS and kept her forever. Because I'm twisted like that.
I'm much happier with the notion of her trying a new adventure for a while, but yes, it will bore her to death in no time. Unless she hijacks the mainframe and turns CAL into *her* companion.
River could so do that! Or at least make the place more exciting. Kids love danger!
This is why I'm really curious as to how her story will progress. She's Moffat's baby and he's ratcheting up her BAMFness - I hope the ending is magnificent.
Now I want to write even creepier fic where the Doctor uploaded her to the TARDIS and kept her forever
I say give her back her agency and have River self-mutate into a computer virus that follows the Doctor everywhere - making his life hell until he gets her out. ;-)
1. I wrote a fix it (that works with canon): River's Choice.
2. She's not there as CAL's mother, she's there as the storyteller, the keeper of the Doctor's story specifically. Her whole existence is largely symbolic (points to icon, as proof of story wide themes), and the fact that she ends her life in a Library is very important.
(Am running out the door, but will be back. Can talk about this subject for HOURS!)
And I can see the storyteller aspect but that bothers me as well. She's not even her *own* storyteller. So not only has she lost her former life, is denied her own agency within the mainframe, she's been reduced to just another volume on the shelf. A rare and desired volume, true, but one written by someone else.
She's not even her *own* storyteller. Hmmm. I don't know. "Our diary" she corrects the Doctor in Time of Angels. It's a shared history, and one she dies to preserve. ("Not those times. Not one line! Don't you dare!") And there's the fact that she is not in the least surprised or upset at having been saved ("Oh, for heaven's sake! He just can't do it, can he? That man, that impossible man! He just can't give in.") - maybe there'll be some light shed on it once we find out who she is?
Although really - read the fic, and then we can talk... I put so much meta in it that it makes for a handy shorthand for a lot of my points. Mostly though, then I find that the Library episodes are the key to EVERYTHING... And I love River's final speech too much for words
( ... )
I don't necessarily disagree with the theory that this was CAL's reality and her dream of having a mother but...that sort of makes it really horrific. Not only is River forced into an eternal existence, she's forced into an eternal existence being the puppet to a adolescent hard drive.
i have honestly never understood this interpretation of the ending. the doctor saves a part of river, her essence, and uploads it where she gets to be with her friends for the rest of time. i don't think that what we see is supposed to be interpreted literally -- i mean at the very end river is reading out of a book and then looks directly at the camera. she breaks the fourth wall to let us know this is not literal. this is a story about a brave man who never gives up trying to help people. that ending is for the kids who watch doctor who. it's there so they can see that all the kids are safe and sound now, and that there is a hero out there they can always trust
( ... )
ANYWAY - I'd be okay with this interpretation except for the very deliberate imagery. We don't see River telling a story to her friends, or in a setting outside the home (even though she has the whole world to choose from), she is telling a bedtime story to a child before tucking them in. Other than breastfeeding, there is no other more maternal image than that. She is, literally, the Angel in the House, from her wardrobe to her actions.
I can see the metaphor for the power of the "story" and the power of "words" in particular, that's pretty much central to New Who but the imagery...I just can't get beyond that choice. If we had seen River and CAL, being safe and happy together, in ANY OTHER scenario, I'd be much happier.
We don't see River telling a story to her friends, or in a setting outside the home (even though she has the whole world to choose from), she is telling a bedtime story to a child before tucking them in.
but that's because the target audience for this show isn't "hot people in their late twenties/early thirties", it's children. and it's not just CAL that we see, safe and sound, it's the two kids from donna's dream life, and the last time we saw them they had disappeared, followed by donna screaming like they had just died.
She is, literally, the Angel in the House, from her wardrobe to her actions.i'm not really sure what that means? we don't see her engage in any actions other than "be dressed in white, like all of her other dead but reunited friends" and reading the story. but like i said, the fact that she looks right at the camera seems to discount, to me, that we're supposed to take the scene literally. and where else should a bedtime story be told than in a house
( ... )
I too had some concerns about this specific aspect for awhile (always loved the symbolic/storytelling stuff). But then we got to know Eleven better and to see her interactions with him as opposed to the younger Ten, and suddenly I felt like it all fit a whole lot better. Eleven being so very paternal, and with the way River tends to fall into a "mom" role at times (especially in relation to Amy), I really do end up seeing them as something like mom and dad to the universe (and a lot of the symbolism around her in season five supports this interpretation as well
( ... )
Actually, it's symbolic more than anything. The River records the Doctor's history in a book. She's the keeper of written word, the one who makes him "immortal." Now she's the ultimate form of that in the Library, the biggest library in the universe.
Going for the literal translation: It's not really a forced existence. That isn't the real River in the Library... She's a ghost of her, and she's a computer now. What computer has a concept of time? Of time passing? I'm sure she's fine. :)
And as someone commented before, it's not her story that she needs to tell. If you read stories like Beowulf, immortality is achieved by the artist that chooses to write their stories. Moffat's alluding to story telling again.
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That is horrifying. It's like the paving stone all over again. "Sorry, couldn't get it all but hey, at least got the important bits!"
I'm much happier with the notion of her trying a new adventure for a while, but yes, it will bore her to death in no time. Unless she hijacks the mainframe and turns CAL into *her* companion.
There - fixed that. ;-)
Reply
*shudders* I mean in IRL terms I think that it was just a mad reach for a "happy ending" where she's not really dead somehow, and we didn't yet know what a BAMF she is. But that doesn't make it any less creepy.
Now I want to write even creepier fic where the Doctor uploaded her to the TARDIS and kept her forever. Because I'm twisted like that.
I'm much happier with the notion of her trying a new adventure for a while, but yes, it will bore her to death in no time. Unless she hijacks the mainframe and turns CAL into *her* companion.
River could so do that! Or at least make the place more exciting. Kids love danger!
Reply
This is why I'm really curious as to how her story will progress. She's Moffat's baby and he's ratcheting up her BAMFness - I hope the ending is magnificent.
Now I want to write even creepier fic where the Doctor uploaded her to the TARDIS and kept her forever
I say give her back her agency and have River self-mutate into a computer virus that follows the Doctor everywhere - making his life hell until he gets her out. ;-)
And yes, kids do love danger!
Reply
2. She's not there as CAL's mother, she's there as the storyteller, the keeper of the Doctor's story specifically. Her whole existence is largely symbolic (points to icon, as proof of story wide themes), and the fact that she ends her life in a Library is very important.
(Am running out the door, but will be back. Can talk about this subject for HOURS!)
Reply
And I can see the storyteller aspect but that bothers me as well. She's not even her *own* storyteller. So not only has she lost her former life, is denied her own agency within the mainframe, she's been reduced to just another volume on the shelf. A rare and desired volume, true, but one written by someone else.
Looking forward to more later!
Reply
Hmmm. I don't know. "Our diary" she corrects the Doctor in Time of Angels. It's a shared history, and one she dies to preserve. ("Not those times. Not one line! Don't you dare!") And there's the fact that she is not in the least surprised or upset at having been saved ("Oh, for heaven's sake! He just can't do it, can he? That man, that impossible man! He just can't give in.") - maybe there'll be some light shed on it once we find out who she is?
Although really - read the fic, and then we can talk... I put so much meta in it that it makes for a handy shorthand for a lot of my points. Mostly though, then I find that the Library episodes are the key to EVERYTHING... And I love River's final speech too much for words ( ... )
Reply
i have honestly never understood this interpretation of the ending. the doctor saves a part of river, her essence, and uploads it where she gets to be with her friends for the rest of time. i don't think that what we see is supposed to be interpreted literally -- i mean at the very end river is reading out of a book and then looks directly at the camera. she breaks the fourth wall to let us know this is not literal. this is a story about a brave man who never gives up trying to help people. that ending is for the kids who watch doctor who. it's there so they can see that all the kids are safe and sound now, and that there is a hero out there they can always trust ( ... )
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Didn't we discuss this at Gally? ;-)
ANYWAY - I'd be okay with this interpretation except for the very deliberate imagery. We don't see River telling a story to her friends, or in a setting outside the home (even though she has the whole world to choose from), she is telling a bedtime story to a child before tucking them in. Other than breastfeeding, there is no other more maternal image than that. She is, literally, the Angel in the House, from her wardrobe to her actions.
I can see the metaphor for the power of the "story" and the power of "words" in particular, that's pretty much central to New Who but the imagery...I just can't get beyond that choice. If we had seen River and CAL, being safe and happy together, in ANY OTHER scenario, I'd be much happier.
Reply
but that's because the target audience for this show isn't "hot people in their late twenties/early thirties", it's children. and it's not just CAL that we see, safe and sound, it's the two kids from donna's dream life, and the last time we saw them they had disappeared, followed by donna screaming like they had just died.
She is, literally, the Angel in the House, from her wardrobe to her actions.i'm not really sure what that means? we don't see her engage in any actions other than "be dressed in white, like all of her other dead but reunited friends" and reading the story. but like i said, the fact that she looks right at the camera seems to discount, to me, that we're supposed to take the scene literally. and where else should a bedtime story be told than in a house ( ... )
Reply
I too had some concerns about this specific aspect for awhile (always loved the symbolic/storytelling stuff). But then we got to know Eleven better and to see her interactions with him as opposed to the younger Ten, and suddenly I felt like it all fit a whole lot better. Eleven being so very paternal, and with the way River tends to fall into a "mom" role at times (especially in relation to Amy), I really do end up seeing them as something like mom and dad to the universe (and a lot of the symbolism around her in season five supports this interpretation as well ( ... )
Reply
Going for the literal translation: It's not really a forced existence. That isn't the real River in the Library... She's a ghost of her, and she's a computer now. What computer has a concept of time? Of time passing? I'm sure she's fine. :)
And as someone commented before, it's not her story that she needs to tell. If you read stories like Beowulf, immortality is achieved by the artist that chooses to write their stories. Moffat's alluding to story telling again.
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