Be like a duck

[saravit]

"Be like a duck. Calm on the surface, but always paddling like the dickens underneath."
- Michael CaineMany people I know, especially those I call friends, are like this. They go about accomplishing their lives with quiet grace and dignity. Their lives are rich and they do not need to put it on public display for the world to see. That is because

Comments

[allofadoodah]

Well, of the people that heard of Sven being in the hospital (three of whom are sub-chieftains) no one contacted either him or his girlfriend at least to see how another member of the household who happens to be falling ill and eventually have surgery is doing. I don't feel it is fair to call Niqui immature or say she is throwing a tantrum when only two people in the entire household called Sven or her to find out what was going on and what condition he was in. Is that not possibly an obligation for sub-chieftains to at least further inquire about a fellow household member falling ill or a clearly upset girlfriend who is also a household member? It is one thing to consider your own needs and those of your family first but another to chastise someone for feeling a general lack of interest from those you should consider a member of the extended family who choose to belong to. Being overwhelmed in such a short period of time often does not afford a person the opportunity or frame of mind to have the forethought to reach out for help. Would you consider it going so far out of your way to make a phone call or send an email? Especially to someone who has already expressed a degree of uncertainty about her own membership in 3 Skulls. If you really find it necessary to throw a few quotes up and attack her reaction to a lack of basic concern for the health of someone you people all call a friend, I'll leave one as well:

"No man is an Island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the Continent, a part of the main; if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friends or of thine own were; any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankind; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee."

- John Donne

[mobiboros]

Is that not possibly an obligation for sub-chieftains to at least further inquire about a fellow household member falling ill or a clearly upset girlfriend who is also a household member?

I'm not a sub-chief but I have to ask why you'd think they would be obligated to contact people who are ill to inquire about their health? Especially when some of them aren't even in the state/may have never met the people involved.

Also, the slipping in of "Clearly upset" is disingenuous. As was made fair clear in the other thread it wasn't clear at the time but only made clear after the fact due to the nature of the "Grapevine".

[allofadoodah]

But people believing that she was ready to fly from New York to Oregon doesn't raise any flags about the condition he might actually have been in?

Three sub-chieftains were in the room in New York state when Bliss told people about Sven, these people knew who they were talking about and all of them were once "camp mommy". What is the point of the title if not to give responsibility to them as representatives of Turk's interests in the group?

If there is cause for concern with members of the household who are sick to the degree his girlfriend would be believed to have flown cross-country to help or lets say, people are gossiping that a former drug user might be reverting back to old habits or maybe someone appears to be having a mental breakdown it might be a good idea no matter who you are Sub-Chieftain, Chieftain or Member X to find out directly from the source instead of relying on the "Grapevine" for their information.

It doesn't take much to show concern for the well being of another person. But saying, "Adults can take care of themselves and what they are responsible for." is completely uncalled for and absolutely wrong. Do drug addicts ask for their friends and family to have an intervention for them? No, people owe it to themselves to step up and take responsibility when someone is incapable of doing it for themselves especially if they are leaders in a large group of people. If you were in the same position would you not be hurt that no one seemed to care at all to even send an email and feel you are left no choice but to determine that everyone is useless to you unless you want to gossip about another member of the house?

You are all entitled to your own beliefs on entitlement, life and self-pity. But I am going to call their bullshit when I see it being used to spew a superior attitude that "I can take care of myself because I'm an adult. When I don't know if my significant other is going to die I'm not going to worry that my no one bothered to even ask how he was doing let alone say that I felt let down by almost the entire household". How dare any of you pass judgment on the pain another person is going through like this is some kind of contest of who had the hardest life to overcome.

[mobiboros]

But people believing that she was ready to fly from New York to Oregon doesn't raise any flags about the condition he might actually have been in?

Not really. Why would it? She loves him, I'd assume even something minor she'd want to be with him just as I'd want to be with my wife even for something minor.

Three sub-chieftains were in the room in New York state when Bliss told people about Sven,

No there weren't as I recall. There were only 2.

these people knew who they were talking about and all of them were once "camp mommy".

No they weren't. Of the 3 subchiefs who were even there that night only 2 have been camp mommy.

What is the point of the title if not to give responsibility to them as representatives of Turk's interests in the group?

And? How does this obligate them to call around for information? You're basically saying they are obligated to butt into people's lives. Which is not the case.

If there is cause for concern with members of the household who are sick to the degree his girlfriend would be believed to have flown cross-country to help

As I already said. I know I, for one, didn't get the impression anything was serious. Flying to be with a sick SO doesn't strike me as a panic situation so much as what SO's do.

or lets say, people are gossiping that a former drug user might be reverting back to old habits

He's the godfather of my daughter and the daughter of one of the subchieftains (one of the ones in question even). None of us felt the need to call because none of us thought it. We scoffed at the grapevine here because we were in contact and we know him.

or maybe someone appears to be having a mental breakdown it might be a good idea no matter who you are Sub-Chieftain, Chieftain or Member X to find out directly from the source instead of relying on the "Grapevine" for their information.

Which, as I said, wasn't apparent at all.

Do drug addicts ask for their friends and family to have an intervention for them?

No, but if a drug addict doesn't ask for help then they don't recover. That's part of admitting you have a problem.

*snip*

Honestly, it boils down to this for me. You want to disagree with the sentiment expressed in the post. Fine. You may think differently and that's cool. But I am not going to let you lay some perceived guilt on others. The situation sucks. It really does. But saying "The subchiefs failed!" is just a poor and malicious attempt to make others feel bad.

[allofadoodah]

In Niqui's eyes everyone failed her and it upsets me that even I know I failed her. I have only known her for three years, other people have known her for much longer than I have. She is my closest friend and I have been good friends with Sven since we were in High School. I know how much he cares for the people in the household. So much so that it encouraged me to take an interest. Sven and Niqui are some of the most important people in my life. Lately I have been seeing many short comings that deeply bother my own ideas of what the household was about. Some of my concerns have been alleviated through conversation with other 3 Skulls. I have a lot of respect for the people in 3 Skulls and defiantly for the sub-chieftains. I don't intend to directly attack just the sub-chieftains or even just the ones who had found out about Sven. Maybe I am confused about how the house manages how involved it gets in the health and welfare of other members. I certainly am about the role sub-chieftains play. Honestly, how do you judge when it is time to intervene in a situation before it becomes worse or possibly dangerous? I'm not saying that any and every rumor be investigated and I know sometimes these kinds of things slip by during busy times. Some things seem to be getting addressed too late for any attempts to help to make an impact. I'm concerned about where things are going and what I might happen to be getting myself into has far as joining the household. I also don't want to see this as the reason Niqui leaves 3 Skulls.

[mobiboros]

Look, it comes down to this. We're all still people. Do some of carry "Rank" in the household? Yes. Have we been tasked with certain responsibilities to the household? Yes. Are we all asked to uphold the household rules and traditions? Yes Can we go to any member, even ones we aren't friends with (And yes, we're not all friends.) and ask for help? Yes.

But in the end, we're still human. We all still have our own lives and problems and sometimes we miss things. Did we miss that Niqui was suffering? It would seem we did. Did we rely on others to fill in information gaps? We did. And those fillings didn't seem to indicate that things were that serious.

I don't even know if we've met IRL but you seem like a good person and I can respect someone who stands up for friends. But don't let some of your pain at not living up to your own standards colour your view of others and fuel your feelings about the failings of others. We're all only human, and in the grand scheme of things it's not that no help was offered it just took longer for it to happen due to miscommunications.

The Subchiefs do their jobs. This past Pennsic showed us that they can make level-headed but tough decisions. But again, they're only human. And many of them are going through their own problems as well right now. Season always seems to be when problems pile up.

And, in the end, the household is made up of people and capable of greatness and failure just as any human endeavor.

[allofadoodah]

That is all well and good, however the main issue I had with the post was Saravit's remarks calling her immature and the overall holier than tao way he came off as well as the apparent agreement along with it.

[mobiboros]

And as I said, you are entitled to your opinion on that. I took offense at you laying perceived guilt on others.

My personal feeling is that the meaning of being an "Adult" is taking responsibility for your actions.

What this means to me (And why I agreed) in context of the original post is that adults ask for help or they don't. Asking doesn't necessarily mean stating clearly "I need help" but ones words and actions indicate whether a person does.

However as a corollary an adult doesn't get in peoples faces about not helping if there was not a clear indication help was needed. They thank those who did help them and accept that maybe people didn't know the whole situation and didn't dig deeper because a situation didn't seem to outwardly merit it.

[allofadoodah]

You are entitled to draw your own conclusions on that. It still does not make what was said that set me off any more uncalled for.

[volatilefiona]

How dare any of you pass judgment on the pain another person is going through like this is some kind of contest of who had the hardest life to overcome.

Isn't that what you are doing? It sounds to me as though you are passing judgement on all of us.
Maybe, just maybe, some of us are dealing with some pretty seriuos stuff in our own personal lives. Maybe some of us are overwhelmed to the point of struggling to just keep up.

Maybe I am an awful person, and a failure as a subcheiftain. Afterall, I didn't find time in the midst dealing with a newborn, my son being diagnosed with autism and needing ear tube surgery, and a full time job, and trying to arrange and coordinate early intervention services to play detective and find out exactly how sick someone in the household, who is on the otherside of the country, was. I feel bad about this, I am usually much better about being there for my household. But sometimes, life just overwhelms me. Maybe you are made of tougher stuff. Maybe you can be there for everyone all of the time. I try to be, but sometimes I can't. The household is important to me, but my children will always come first. I am sorry if this makes me an unfit subcheiftain in your eyes.

[allofadoodah]

When the response she gets is "suck it up", not necessarily from yourself but certainly from others. That I have a problem with.

[saravit]

1.
When I had a gout attack and was in massive pain and crippled and went to the ER? Did you contact me and offer consolation?

How about when my son went to ER to get stitches? Or when he went to have his dislocated arm reduced? Or when he had a 105F fever? Did you call?

Or when my dad was in the hospital for kidney cancer. Or my mom for her breast cancer. Did you offer me your sympathy?

Just so it's not all about me, how about the household member that's in the middle of a nasty split, complete with custody battle and accusations of being a child molester? Did you offer him any sympathy? Have you shown him any concern?

You didn't know about it? Other people in the household knew! Some of it was posted on LJ and on the household mailing list! You should have heard! How dare you not know about it! Where's that community spirit?

2.
Reread what I wrote. I did not mention any names, yet you say I am calling Niqui immature and you say I am saying she is throwing a tantrum. How did you reach that conclusion? Was it because her actions fit what I described?

[allofadoodah]

It is very clear that you are talking about that situation so don't turn it around like that. So don't give me that crap for starters.

I was only added onto the One List and the 3skulls journal a few weeks ago. I'm not even a full member yet. All things considered I am beginning to second guess that choice.

I'm sure people contacted you and were not left without the sense that people at least cared. I am sorry to hear about what has happened to you and your family I really am. But I also did not pass judgment upon your actions or reactions during any of those events in your life. I don't mean to get in everyone's faces about it but this struck a cord with me.

I'm not saying that it is everyone's responsibility to know the total of what is going on. But if you are being told that people who you know of well enough are sick and completely alone on the other coast on the country maybe a few words would not be too much to expect. Blowing off that fact that they were hurt by this as immature is not cool.

Like I said earlier, this isn't a contest.

[saravit]

First off, this situation with Niqui isn't the only time someone expressed that they weren't getting enough sympathy for whatever reason. So wise up to the fact that I qualified the behavior I was talking about and made a generalized statement. The behavior is immature, not necessarily the person displaying it.

Did Niqui's actions fit the situation I described? You think so or you wouldn't be taking me to task over what I wrote.

Did my mentioning all of the stuff that happened and is happening make you obligated to contact me and other people and offer sympathy? I don't think so. Correct me if I'm wrong. This isn't a contest, those are examples.

You're not saying that it is everyone's responsibility to know the total of what's going on, yet you assume that everyone knows what's going on. Who did Niqui talk to? She spoke with Bliss. Did she talk to anyone else there? Bueller? Bueller?

What did Bliss tell the people that were there? How would you know? You weren't there.

Bliss conveyed that Sven was in the hospital and Niqui was concerned for him. Did Bliss say "OMG Sven is in the hospital and might die at any time and Niqui's really upset over this"? I don't think so and, apparently, niether did anyone else that was actually there. Was any contact information, like what hospital was Sven in, given out? No. Was there any indication that Niqui was losing her shit? No.

I'm not blowing off that she's upset because Sven is in a hospital. I'm not blowing off that she wants support. I'm saying it's immature to expect people to come out of the woodwork if you haven't told them anything. You might have noticed a lot of people spoke up with kind words when she indicated she actually wanted support. Or you can ignore and misrepresent that too.

[allofadoodah]

It still does not make what you wrote which set myself and others off any more uncalled for. If it was directed solely at Niqui or in general to all those immature throwers of tantrums. I'm not saying some people are not drama queens but this was not one of those times. It was never about self-pity, she was thinking of Sven feeling so removed from the household on the whole on top of everything she has been dealing with. Being upset enough how people found out then again from the dead quiet she heard in reply she took it as an insult to Sven that there was no interest in even finding out his condition. It was also my understanding that people were more interested in talking of rumors about Rigel than finding out anything more about Sven. And the people who called her and contacted her were largely those who had no knowledge of what had happened save one which I know of and even some who have more than enough going on in their lives offered help. You came to your own conclusions based on the information you had and then offended her. Quack.

[saravit]

Well, now that it becomes obvious that you're not willing to discuss the merits and flaws of what I've written but are rather more interested in waving your dick around to impress Niqui, I see no need to further regard anything from you having to do with this subject.

Thank you for the entertainment.