Episode Notes: Magnificent Seven "Wagon Train, part 2"
Well the folks who gave me a Chris/Vin oriented thumbs up on this episode weren't kidding at all, were they? Because OMG it is so clear to me that Vin went back to *Chris* specifically. And Chris, hurt by him leaving and withdrawing...until Vin comes tumbling down that hill. Mmmm!! ::happy sighs
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Sure, maybe he's seen the error of his ways, but I don't see any evidence of it from these two episodes. And, combined with the fact that Charlotte still intends to leave with Vin - she had to have told Richmond this, she had to have said, I'm just here until the 7 leave and then I'm gone with Vin - he would know that Vin dumped her and I'm sure he would use that to regain his power over her and eventually to hurt her, emotionally if nothing else.
I don't think this ep really makes Vin look like a good guy. He basically lead Charlotte on and then dumped her after making the situation worse. There is nothing heroic or admirable in what he did. And no matter how much blame you lay at Charlotte's feet, Vin still played the active role of facilitator, with full knowledge of the situation and the players involved - he can't plead ignorance on any count.
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I don't think this ep really makes Vin look like a good guy. He basically lead Charlotte on and then dumped her after making the situation worse. There is nothing heroic or admirable in what he did. And no matter how much blame you lay at Charlotte's feet, Vin still played the active role of facilitator, with full knowledge of the situation and the players involved - he can't plead ignorance on any count.
That jars with my vision of the show as well - I see Vin is the Mary Sue of M7, most of the time he's portrayed as being almost saintly, which is most frustrating sometimes. Looking at it that way, In the end both got what they wanted - Vin was able to play rescuer and Charlotte got her husband's attention. As I commented to farad I'm certain they didn't have sex, that goes against everything we saw previously in Vin's respectful attitude towards Charlotte. If they did have sex, I would then agree that Vin was a complete bastard who used her and then sent her back to her husband once he'd got what he wanted, but I see this as completely OOC for Vin. I also see having sex with someone she's just met as OOC for Charlotte - or any 'respectable' woman of the time - as well.
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I see this in fanfic a lot. But I don't see it on the show. I mean, I think he's a decent guy, generally, who tries to do the right thing, generally - but then so do all of the other guys, including Ezra. Do you have examples from the show of Vin being saintly?
In the end both got what they wanted - Vin was able to play rescuer and Charlotte got her husband's attention.
I would agree with you, but only to an extent. I think this was most evident in the first episode - when Vin rescued Charlotte from being kidnapped. THAT should have been enough for Vin to satisfy his need to play rescuer and it should have been enough to get Richmond's attention. But it isn't. In the end, neither got what they wanted - Charlotte wasn't wooed back by her husband, she was still intent on leaving with Vin, and the only reason she doesn't is because he dumps her, he changes his mind; and Vin doesn't get what he wants either, because in the end he hasn't saved her in any way, shape or form - at best, her life will follow the same course it had been on before they'd met.
I'm certain they didn't have sex, that goes against everything we saw previously in Vin's respectful attitude towards Charlotte.
My point is, Richmond will think it - whether he wants to or not, there will always be the question "Did they or didn't they?" because they had the opportunity and the motivation. More over, the other people in the wagon train will wonder, too.
And while you - and I - don't believe they had sex, because we know Vin, Richmond and the other wagon trainers don't know Vin other than their brief contact with him during the trip from 4 Corners to the homestead. They have no reason to give Vin the benefit of the doubt. And as for Charlotte, I believe, they will take their cues from Richmond - their treatment of her will depend greatly on his treatment of her, on his ability to forgive her her transgressions, on his ability to move past what happened on the wagon train.
If they did have sex, I would then agree that Vin was a complete bastard who used her and then sent her back to her husband once he'd got what he wanted, but I see this as completely OOC for Vin. I also see having sex with someone she's just met as OOC for Charlotte - or any 'respectable' woman of the time - as well.
I agree. But no 'respectable' woman of the time would 1) leave her husband and run off with another man or 2) spend even one night alone with another man. They are able to explain away the first night - the night Vin rescued her from the kidnappers - Richmond is none too happy about it, but there is an excuse and there are extreme circumstances and exceptions are made. But Charlotte goes willingly the second time - there is no acceptable excuse for that - no respectable wife would desert her husband and whether or not they did sleep with each other, it will be assumed by 'respectable' people that they did - at least in that time period.
My issue with Vin is that he knew Charlotte wanted to be with him and he allowed her to run away with him. Then, when she kept her end of things, when she was ready to leave again, that's when he says no. That's when he turns her down. He lead her on. He told her if she was his he'd never let her go - and then he let her go and for no good reason. And, worse, he has no real idea what her life will be like once he leaves. Sure, Richmond is glad to have her back now, but what about later? Vin can't know what Richmond will be like in a month or six months; and while Vin may want to believe the best of Richmond, he's an idiot and a fool if he never considers that Charlotte's actions and his actions might have consequences, that Richmond may feel resentment and shame and disgrace over his wife's behavior and that it's possible Richmond could take those emotions out on Charlotte. It might not happen, but it's a possibility and that alone should have made Vin think twice about declaring his affection for Charlotte, about allowing her to leave with him, and about dumping her in the end.
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The issues you raise are all valid, and I think the problems with character etc can all be explained by simple bad writing. I feel awful saying that, because I am no writer myself, but I think the episodes could have been a lot better. I've always thought that the WT episodes are the worst of the two series and wouldn't be surprised if it was because of them the final death knell tolled for the show. None of the storylines were strong enough to sustain a two-parter.
I think they perhaps should have spent more time on Chris/Mary/Gerard than the other 'love triangle'. Chris and Mary went round in circles and didn't really get anywhere. C/M/G was, I felt, more realistic and involved two characters we care about rather than just one. Unlike other minor one (or two) shot characters (eg Lydia, Nettie Wells, Chanu, Maria, Raphael and a few I can't mention for spoiler reasons), IMO Charlotte and Richmond are too dull to really care about what happens to them.
My issue with Vin is that he knew Charlotte wanted to be with him and he allowed her to run away with him. Then, when she kept her end of things, when she was ready to leave again, that's when he says no.
I do believe that by telling Charlotte he'd changed his mind he thought he was doing the right thing. He'd been watching her with Richmond since they got back and came to the conclusion that she still loved her husband - but as you rightly pointed out, the way it was handled meant that Vin could very well have made things worse then just left her to deal with it. M7 had a great line in ballsy women, I think they should have given Charlotte a bit of that fiestiness. She did ask Vin to dance, and she followed him when Chris sent him away - to me that shows that she wasn't completely cowed by Richmond, she still had a will and mind of her own. I would have liked her to be the one who decided what to do with the rest of her life. Maybe a better ending would have been for her to realise that Vin wasn't the answer to her problems, but her brief escape gave her the guts to finally leave her husband. Obviously that wouldn't have been easy but the show gave us plenty of other women who were making it on their own. Instead we have Vin making the decision for her, her being upset and Vin riding away convinced he'd done the right thing. I think the intention was to make Vin look noble - he says he couldn't let her give up her dream - but he seems pretty unperturbed at giving up the woman he'd been declaring undying love for the day before.
In the end, as I've already said I don't think anyone was supposed to consider anything other than what they gave us. Richmond was grief-stricken over the death of his daughter, drove his wife away, realised when he thought she'd left him that he still loved her after all, she realised when he was injured that she still loved him after all, she forgave him, he forgave her, Vin has actually done them a favour by making them realise they still love each other, and he's the injured party, giving her up for her own good. I certainly had never thought of it any other way, but you've given me plenty to think about with your interpretation of the story. For me that's what's great about these discussions, getting other fans' perspectives and looking at the episodes in fresh new ways...well, that and the Chris/Vin squee! :p
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This is an excellent point!! Thanks so much!!
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On the whole I agree with you about Wagon Train not being as well written as some of the other episodes. It just seems like the writers sort of forgot the characters or something, so they've got Vin all out of character, Ezra too. And we're supposed to be seeing more between Chris and Mary than is actually there. But I think the Dickie O'Shea/homesteaders story was actually fairly strong and if they'd braided it in with better *secondary* stories, it could have worked better.
I do believe that by telling Charlotte he'd changed his mind he thought he was doing the right thing. He'd been watching her with Richmond since they got back and came to the conclusion that she still loved her husband
I believe you're right that this is what we're supposed to see, and its an interpretation that does make some sense to me. (Though I also think that Vin was honest about having changed his mind for his own self as well.)
trulybloom does have some excellent points in her interpretation though, and I hope that some excellent stories will come out of her thoughts, whether she writes them or someone else does. :D
I would have liked her to be the one who decided what to do with the rest of her life. Maybe a better ending would have been for her to realise that Vin wasn't the answer to her problems, but her brief escape gave her the guts to finally leave her husband.
This would have been a *super* interesting ending for the story. Or even having her stick around with the homesteaders--staying rather than going off with Vin, but making Richmond try to get her back. She could have thrown in with one of the widows easily enough.
I think the intention was to make Vin look noble - he says he couldn't let her give up her dream - but he seems pretty unperturbed at giving up the woman he'd been declaring undying love for the day before.
His very unperturbedness is why it never crossed my mind to read the scene this way until folks were talking about it (and pointing out that it's really the plain text reading of it). I swear I saw it as Vin realizing that he was going to be losing Chris and that was too high a price to pay. And the infatuation wore off, as they so often and so suddenly do.
For me that's what's great about these discussions, getting other fans' perspectives and looking at the episodes in fresh new ways...well, that and the Chris/Vin squee! :p
Absolutely!! I love this aspect of these discussions!!
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I swear I saw it as Vin realizing that he was going to be losing Chris and that was too high a price to pay.
Me too! Vin's real love is Chris, Charlotte's is her husband, and the mad dashing off together just made them come to their senses. Charlotte made her husband realise he still loved her and Vin made Chris realise that he didn't want Mary, he wanted Vin. Happily ever after for all concerned (and I'll just throw in a wee parallel for good measure - both Richmond and Chris lost their way after the death of a child. The people who love them act out as a way of getting their attention, of bringing them back to focusing on the living). I know I'm a terribly romantic sop but that's how I see it!
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Yep. And I would love to read a story or two based on the idea that Vin, unknowingly, left Charlotte to a fairly bad fate. But it's not the way I read the episode.
Vin's real love is Chris, Charlotte's is her husband, and the mad dashing off together just made them come to their senses.
::swoons:: Exactly!! Just exactly right. And when faced with losing *Chris* and gaining only Charlotte, Vin *very* quickly figured that out. Mmmm!!
Happily ever after for all concerned (and I'll just throw in a wee parallel for good measure - both Richmond and Chris lost their way after the death of a child. The people who love them act out as a way of getting their attention, of bringing them back to focusing on the living)
Oooo!! Now that is a very neat parallel and one that I'll give more pondering to. :D
And yeah, we can both be terribly romantic sops together. :D
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Right, I really AM shutting up now :p
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I mean, I think he's a decent guy, generally, who tries to do the right thing, generally - but then so do all of the other guys, including Ezra. True, but I have to agree that there's a touch of Vinnie Sue in canon (nothing like the lashings in fanon, true :), in that he's the only one you can - unless you count this business with Charlotte - never never never seems to Do The Rather-Less-Than-Right Thing (something the other six are all endearingly good at, yes even Nathan:)
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Well, that depends on how you look at the oh-so-scary cold angry moments like in Witness and Sins of the Past. I personally find them hot as blisters but also far from Vinnie Sue. :D
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There's only a touch of NobleRustic!Sue (and to give credit where due, it's far clearer when one reads the scripts, Eric Close does a marvellous job of cutting it back) but just enough to make it fairly hrd for me to believe that Vin would Do The Wrong Thing... withour a damned good reason.
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I know quite a lot of people who always Do The Right Thing, as they see it anyway, and they do their best to see clear. I don't think a character (or a person) needs to behave badly to be realistic.
But yeah, Vin does do his best to do the right thing as he sees it. He just sometimes gets pretty scary about how to get there. (And personally, I think threatening to drop that poor bastard on his head for information is right on the edge.)
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