Fact checking

[cirdan_havens]

Yeah, this is really sad. I had to rush home from Starbucks because I suddenly wanted to know Shion and Dohko's birthyear, 1712. It's because I was thinking of all the internal struggles going on in China and Tibet at the time and thought that such justice-oriented people must surely have been seeking to help the people and free them from the

Comments

[lunaneve]

Great work! *__* So, many of them are Fire Horse (being born in 1966): I notice its matching profile in the C.H. is filled with some of the best qualities, such as strength, hard work and a kind of grace and nobility. Wow, Kurumada is always extremely accurate! Western Horoscope fits Saga and Kanon more closely of course, but - I understand - satisfying both of the Zodiacs simultaneously would be rather impossible (oh, I've also read this sentence somewhere. "Within the Zodiac, Gemini is opposite Sagittarius", kawaii).
Pretty close to this subject there's another question (I'm obsessed with it): the ascendant. We cannot deduce Saga and Kanon ascendant since we don't know their time of birth (we can barely guess the place), but it would be gorgeous if they were Gemini-Gemini, or at least Gemini and an other air-sign ascendant. It would give strength to the sign qualities, esp. communication skills. We know in particular Kanon for being a very persuasive communicator. Ok, I stop with it ^^;;

[lunaneve]

I'm a baka, they cannot share the same ascendant, since I assume Kanon was NOT born just a couple minutes later than his bro

[cirdan_havens]

It might be possible. Never know. They might even have been born through c-section so both born practically at the same time. We know that the Bronzes are all orphans and that's true of lots of the saints, but the ones with siblings imply that the mother at least was around for a while. I've always wondered if maybe Saga and Kanon's birth killed their mother. Probably "distinct hours" is what you're looking for. And even if we can't know, it's fun to speculate.

[lunaneve]

Yeah, and I do speculate *a lot* (shame on me). Sadly, Kurumada tells nothing about Saga and Kanon's origins. Only, he gives a hint: they're are both referred as demigods. In the myth, demigods were people whose one parent was a god and whose other parent was human... So, I think their mother was human and, as you said, they can be connected to her death. Maybe directly, or maybe she was killed by someone because of them (as in the legend of Rhea Silvia). Anyway, I learned Saga and Kanon are two of the most popular characters in the StS' worldwide fandom, so I still have hope in some outside story revealing the whole thing... Hmm, hard to see.

[cirdan_havens]

Well, how can we not speculate? It's what we do as fans. And if we followed the traditional legends, then they might actually be the sons of Zeus and thus Athena's half-brothers. It's hard to imagine only one of them being Zeus' son and not the other because then Kanon would be the god/demi-god and we already know Saga is more powerful than him. It's also why I can't resist thinking of them as immortal. O:) So maybe everyone died in the destruction of the Wailing Wall except for Saga and Kanon? Well, but then, I'm a big Gemini twins fan because they're really cool. But if the Elysium Fields were the resting place of heroes, then you could also assume the Gold Saints are in there but unable to help in the battle against Hades.

Having an outside story might make it hard because we'll still wonder if it's canon or not. Heh, and from wiki: According to Liddell and Scott's Lexicon, kastor is Greek for "he who excels", and poludeukeis means "very sweet". So Saga excels and Kanon is very sweet? O:)

[lunaneve]

I totally adore the idea of Saga and Kanon being demigods, as Zeus' sons (and both of them, for the reason you explained). This's also pretty believable: Saga is called "the incarnation of a god", as stated by Kanon himself. Besides, he's endlessy referred in both anime and manga as pure as a god, strong as a god, etc. Kanon: we can take his demigodness almost for granted, since even ova #4 is named after it ;D I only wonder if they are completely aware of their true origins and/or powers.
Anyway, in Cape Sounion something strange happened. Kanon needed some help and Athena actually gave him. So, she saved a man who wanted to kill her - and I can't remember Athena directly helping any other Gold Saint the same way - but she was just a tiny unuseful baby, during those very same days, when Aiolos rescued her and died for it. So, she looks very forgivable towards Saga and Kanon, much more than she usually (already) does.
Saga surely excels, but does Kanon taste sweet? We should ask someone who experienced it...

[cirdan_havens]

Oh yes. :) What better proof that Saga is god-like than the fact that he is a god. Kanon is taken for granted but I think it's only because he doesn't shine as brightly next to his brother. Ikki insulted him and said he's not as good as Saga, but we hear his thoughts later when he says that Kanon's just as strong. His "god-like" aspects probably didn't show because he was acting evil and also hiding behind Poseidon. Also, Saori's staff is acknowledged to be the goddess of victory Nike in a different form. Can someone less than a god really handle such an item? Seiya only very temporarily borrowed the shield, but Saga wanted to wield both staff and shield. Along a similar vein, can Kanon really have held and used Poseidon's trident without being a god or demi-god himself? It brought him under the waters _before_ Poseidon was awakened. Even when everyone was fighting for the Sagittarius cloth, it's quite possible that they wouldn't have been able to wear it and use its power

[lunaneve]

You did a good point, I didn't think about it! Divine items, such as Athena's staff and Poseidon's trident, own remarkable functions only for those who can handle them. Gods! Besides, Kanon managed to manipulate Poseidon and Saga deceived tons of people in the Sanctuary without Shaka really figuring it. I think you can trick a god or "the man closest to god" - for such a long time - only if you are pretty equal to him. Otherwise, he'd find out. What is kawaii is that as long as they can deceive everyone, they don't seem able to cheat each other

[cirdan_havens]

I do think it's just how Kanon behaves. Even though they're twins, twins in anime seem to have a very strong sense of who is older and who is younger. They're probably not so different at all.

Yeah, they didn't mention who saved Kanon. Seems Kanon has to protect himself all the time. But he does a good job of being independent in Hades' underworld.

[lunaneve]

Yes, in Hades' Inferno Kanon did a really great job and all by his own. I wonder what if Saga was still alive at that time.
Unfortunately, their paths cross only for a little while at the end of the previous chapter, and we can only guess their mutual feelings, but we cannot tell 'em for sure.

Anyway, since I love so much their relationship, somewhat unpredictable and unstable and a type of attraction/rejection one, I would really like to see them involved in a Pope/Saga - Gemini Saint/Kanon setting. Possibly with Saga playing some of the best dark interpretations of himself ;)

[cirdan_havens]

I always think it'd be great too. :D Then they probably really could've taken over all of Sanctuary. I don't know about facing the Bronzes though. It's rather sad that they must, by necessity, lose to the youths, but other parts of the story would be great. I often wish that Episode G could be a little different for that reason. Oh well. I suppose that's what dj and fanfic is for.

[lunaneve]

It might also happen later, in Saint Seiya nobody dies for a long time except for Aiolos (huh, not a big loss). I wonder, in the eventuality to see the Gold Saints alive again, Shion and Kanon would be back too? I hope so. In the Tenkai-hen ouverture, which is set after the Hades arc I understand, we can see all the dead Gold Saints naked in a kind of underworld full of water (I love that scene).
Shion is there. I cannot tell whether Saga and Kanon are both there or not, since there's surely at least one Gemini but we don't see the two of them in the same shot and it's dark... However, if Athena had the power to revive someone, it would make sense to bring back the 14 of them, at that point. And then, back in the Sanctuary, Shion would probably chose Saga, not Aiolos, this time... Uhm, I'm going too far :P If I could draw doujinshi I'd spend all my day in them...

[cirdan_havens]

I understand that both Saga and Kanon so we get to have 2 naked Gemini. ;) It would be nice if she brought them back, but she hasn't so far. *pout* Seems happy just to have her Bronze Saints. And they don't say it, but Saga has done a lot for Athena, not just to make up for his past crimes but above and beyond the call of duty since he's the one who encouraged Shura and Camus to continue on. Well, I like Aiolos but he really doesn't show up a lot so it really is hard to imagine how he'd be. He died at 14 after all. Saga's literally twice his age and has more experience. I heard that Saga didn't fall prey to the Ares spirit until the last minute, 13 years later when the show actually begins. I can really believe that because he raised a whole bunch of saints. So I was writing a fanfic about that but stopped because it sometimes gets overwhelming to write something that big that's ultimately not according to canon.

[lunaneve]

Yes, Saga did a lot for Athena, neverthless she gave him that infamous dagger through his brother's hands, she asked him to take her life, then eventually she killed herself right in front of him. Wow. A bit regardless of Saga's feelings, we'd say. Saori had to reach arayashiki quickly, but there was no particular need to do it that way. But maybe she thought Saga was able to stand all that.
Anyway, to Kanon she looks different, sometimes even concerned about him, and I understand he didn't join the other saints during the battle in the Sanctuary because she wanted him to stay around. There's a very short scene in which Kanon runs towards the stairs and Athena calls him. Perhaps she wanted him to recover?
I agree with you, Saga was a very good Kyoko and raised almost all the Saints we see in the show (thus 28 is a pretty old age for a Saint, I understand...). If by chance you'd complete that ff, please tell us.
Two naked Gemini Saints and it was so dark, that's a crime :P