Geek guys no longer get the girls?

[roseveare]

I keep increasingly seeing snippets of a "nice guy/geek guy characters are bad" u-turn in fandom which to be honest, what? Because stupid me, I'm still wed to the notion that when I say a character is a nice guy that's a good thing, and I have no idea where the original meta is that this stems from or when but

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[kattahj]

I think it started out as "nice guy" in the sense of "Guys who claim they're such nice guys, and still they can't get dates because women are such selfish bitches." And then that became such a shorthand that I, for one, tend to use "good man" for men who are actually good people, rather than just claiming that they are and then getting angry at women for not sleeping with them.

And there are doubtlessly some characters like that in films and on TV, who shouldn't get the girl, like the protagonist of Can't Buy Me Love who's just a horrible person and there's no reason why the girl should want him. Or Xander, in his worst moments. Guys who think the girl owes them attention

[roseveare]

I really only named it that because there used to be that slogan on everyone's LJ icon for a while. I care much less about the actual romantic relationships in any of these shows than the characters. Although didn't really watch Chuck myself, but I remember it was hugely popular. But yeah, I could very happily live with less shows being about anybody getting anyone.

I think I need to rewatch Reaper. All I mostly remember when I think of it is the (last?) episode where he's playing games against the Devil. Also, the Devil was really awesome on that show. (LOL, now there's a line.)

I kind of half remember the discussion of that first thing, that you say it started out as. But I'm just seeing this applied to characters framed in the narrative as shy, maybe-geeky, generally less socially confident and unassuming guys who don't act like that, and who don't act like they're just being nice out of expectation of a reward, with one exception in the recent DW post that sparked me thinking about this again. So it's not even related to that

[kattahj]

Also, the Devil was really awesome on that show. (LOL, now there's a line.)

I was 90% there for Ray Wise's Devil. And the romance was of the tiresome "I can't tell the girl about this weird shit I'm involved in" variety, but I can't recall any creeper behaviour.

I do think it's a good thing that some behaviours seen as romantic are now more generally put in question - like Untamed Heart where they guy follows the girl home, breaks into her bedroom to put up a Christmas tree, and so on. That shit is just creepy.

But I'm just seeing this applied to characters framed in the narrative as shy, maybe-geeky, generally less socially confident and unassuming guys who don't act like that,

Yup. I had a conversation with Selenak a while ago where she pointed out that it's like Mary Sue or queerbaiting, it's being used so widely that it's completely pointless by now.

It's increasingly all about labels and oppression, and not people, and definitely not fun. :(

I think it's definitely worth bringing up issues in a show to make it more fun -

[roseveare]

I needs me some Ray Wise devil back in my fandom. Hope I've still got the AVIs.

The can't-tell-the-partner thing is done quite interestingly in Grimm, which I think you gave up after an ep or two. It maybe stretched out a bit long. But I did like what it did for the strength of the female character in terms of giving her her own arc and having to fight for her mind.

But I think in part it's a generational shift - both in that they'll probably mellow in time, and that we might be holding on to antiquated ideas. :-)Certainly it's true that the geek as downtrodden is no longer true in the modern world

[kattahj]

The can't-tell-the-partner thing is done quite interestingly in Grimm, which I think you gave up after an ep or two.

Yeah, I only saw the pilot of that one. Might change someday, but there's a lot of TV in my life right now, so probably not any time soon.

A character would have to have a mostly untarnished morality to be a good man, whereas 'nice' is a softer praise -- wellmeaning and chivalrous and tries, perhaps

True enough - and nice is more behaviour than morality, really. Decent guy works. Interestingly, I think good guy is slightly softer than good man. There are many characters I'd call good guy without going all the way to good man. "Good people", used in singular, seems to be a thing now too, I don't know what that comes from.

I still haven't seen Sousa because download issues but it sounds like 'good man' may apply there from what you say.I think he tries, and usually succeeds, but not always. Latest ep was the first time he flipped his fucking shit, so now he's got a bunch of haters. But then, I think fandom reactions

[roseveare]

I think "good people" as in "he's/she's good people" with one singular person has a US dialect origin but I couldn't say exactly where. 'Decent guy' or 'good guy' work, I think. The latter does sound softer than 'good man'.

Always the haters. *sigh* When I was, like, 18, I went once or twice onto this site where you could throw darts at Worf (when he first came onto DS9 and there was a... resistance to the change of dynamic, shall we say, this was at that point. There was one for Wesley on Angel a bit later, but I didn't throw darts at Wesley, I'd always liked him). I think that was the last time I had any use for the character hate.

Um. Did they kill Hale for real in Lost Girl? I know that people were upset. Did they ever fix it or anything? I haven't watched the show after season 1 but it sounded like that was something that sucked for the fans.

[EDIT: How did this post have that many typos?]

[kattahj]

I remember the Wesley dart board, I never used it either. I did hate Lonnie on SeaQuest, and Leonardo DiCaprio... I must have been around 18 too. I guess that's the universal age of hate. :-)

Um. Did they kill Hale for real in Lost Girl?

Well, the instance I mentioned where he confessed his love was earlier, when he was trying to keep Kenzi safe. But... I think so? I haven't actually watched most of season 5, but in season 4 they killed first him, then Kenzi, and then in early season 5 it looked like they'd bring Kenzi back but not Hale, and I couldn't be bothered to keep watching. I mean, obviously there were other things about the eps I didn't enjoy at that point, I didn't stop watching just because they sank my ship. It was just a contributing factor.

[miaharthur]

That's the South. Gotta be. We have a whole code. "He's/She's good people." is an actual good thing. The speaker is vouching for the subject of the sentence. I think that's how it means more than the actual words. It's not just saying the subject is a good person, it is that the speaker is adding the weight of their own reputation to the statement.

"Bless his/her/your heart." is emphatically not a good thing. I saw a program the other day where the host was from California and he was bugging this older lady in Tennessee, and she pulls that out. We were laughing so hard, because the guy clearly thought it meant she liked him.