Geek guys no longer get the girls?

[roseveare]

I keep increasingly seeing snippets of a "nice guy/geek guy characters are bad" u-turn in fandom which to be honest, what? Because stupid me, I'm still wed to the notion that when I say a character is a nice guy that's a good thing, and I have no idea where the original meta is that this stems from or when but

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[kattahj]

I think it started out as "nice guy" in the sense of "Guys who claim they're such nice guys, and still they can't get dates because women are such selfish bitches." And then that became such a shorthand that I, for one, tend to use "good man" for men who are actually good people, rather than just claiming that they are and then getting angry at women for not sleeping with them.

And there are doubtlessly some characters like that in films and on TV, who shouldn't get the girl, like the protagonist of Can't Buy Me Love who's just a horrible person and there's no reason why the girl should want him. Or Xander, in his worst moments. Guys who think the girl owes them attention.

But there's been this whole dilution of the concept where any man who isn't an alpha male and might be a bit shy around women gets called a "nice guy" in the derogatory sense. I've had this problem with the Agent Carter fandom lately and am just throwing my hands up and going "Yes, because being angry at a girl because you think she's a murderer is EXACTLY the same as being angry at a girl because she won't fuck you. Dumbasses."

And I'm completely here for Jake Foley and... well, maybe not Sam Oliver in the romantic sense, but he's certainly not a bad person. (Can't tell about the rest, haven't seen enough of them.) Since I'm not remotely into alpha males, a lot of my male fancrushes fall into a gentler, nerdier category anyway.

And as for fandom finding everything "problematic", it seems like everything has to be either "problematic" or "important" and can never just be this mix of all sorts of things...

[roseveare]

I really only named it that because there used to be that slogan on everyone's LJ icon for a while. I care much less about the actual romantic relationships in any of these shows than the characters. Although didn't really watch Chuck myself, but I remember it was hugely popular. But yeah, I could very happily live with less shows being about anybody getting anyone.

I think I need to rewatch Reaper. All I mostly remember when I think of it is the (last?) episode where he's playing games against the Devil. Also, the Devil was really awesome on that show. (LOL, now there's a line.)

I kind of half remember the discussion of that first thing, that you say it started out as. But I'm just seeing this applied to characters framed in the narrative as shy, maybe-geeky, generally less socially confident and unassuming guys who don't act like that, and who don't act like they're just being nice out of expectation of a reward, with one exception in the recent DW post that sparked me thinking about this again. So it's not even related to that old discussion anymore and I didn't remember or relate that.

Like you, I'm not into the alpha males types, and for whatever reason the characters I tend to relate to best are socially inept men. So this is going to keep coming up and it's infuriating.

I am beyond sick of fandom trotting out guidelines on what it is and is not okay to like. I am liking fandom steadily less the more it takes that as it's self-righteous social-justice fuelled duty to do so. It's supposed to be about fun. It's increasingly all about labels and oppression, and not people, and definitely not fun. :(

It would be such a relief if fandom could start embracing the all-shades all-sorts thing and stop reducing everything to labels and extremes.

Hmmm, I don't honestly know if Nathan actually could be described as clear-cut "good" -- though he's definitely not this permutation of Nice Guy -- he tries, but he's presented as fairly morally complex and has made some questionable decisions by this point. Which is a plus from my perspective, because he's real. Of course, then you get the people who slam you for liking a character that has shades of grey (no reference to that movie intended) and the whole "Duke is a better person, you suck for liking Nathan" crowd.

[kattahj]

Also, the Devil was really awesome on that show. (LOL, now there's a line.)

I was 90% there for Ray Wise's Devil. And the romance was of the tiresome "I can't tell the girl about this weird shit I'm involved in" variety, but I can't recall any creeper behaviour.

I do think it's a good thing that some behaviours seen as romantic are now more generally put in question - like Untamed Heart where they guy follows the girl home, breaks into her bedroom to put up a Christmas tree, and so on. That shit is just creepy.

But I'm just seeing this applied to characters framed in the narrative as shy, maybe-geeky, generally less socially confident and unassuming guys who don't act like that,

Yup. I had a conversation with Selenak a while ago where she pointed out that it's like Mary Sue or queerbaiting, it's being used so widely that it's completely pointless by now.

It's increasingly all about labels and oppression, and not people, and definitely not fun. :(

I think it's definitely worth bringing up issues in a show to make it more fun - I remember having a conversation with a guy about how grating the second Indiana Jones movie is to me, and he insisted that "it's just meant to be fun" but to me it was considerably less fun than the other movies specifically because of the stereotypical shit.

But I also think there needs to be an understanding that people find DIFFERENT things fun, and that there are nuances to things. But I think in part it's a generational shift - both in that they'll probably mellow in time, and that we might be holding on to antiquated ideas. :-)

Of course, then you get the people who slam you for liking a character that has shades of grey (no reference to that movie intended) and the whole "Duke is a better person, you suck for liking Nathan" crowd.

I think both Nathan and Duke have their ups and downs and that it's not doing either character a favour to try to flatten them like that. And I don't know what they're smoking if they think Nathan is that kind of Nice Guy.

Btw, another recent example that had me go "um" - "It's emotionally manipulative to tell a girl you love her when you think you're about to die!" (Yeah, no. Although it's clichéd, I'll give them that.)

[roseveare]

I needs me some Ray Wise devil back in my fandom. Hope I've still got the AVIs.

The can't-tell-the-partner thing is done quite interestingly in Grimm, which I think you gave up after an ep or two. It maybe stretched out a bit long. But I did like what it did for the strength of the female character in terms of giving her her own arc and having to fight for her mind.

But I think in part it's a generational shift - both in that they'll probably mellow in time, and that we might be holding on to antiquated ideas. :-)

Certainly it's true that the geek as downtrodden is no longer true in the modern world.

I don't think doing the comparison between characters is very helpful, especially those two guys, because they are supposed to be so different.

I think what I meant about "good man" -- I've been having more thoughts on this -- it's quite an absolute term, and a term that encompasses more, the way I see it. A character would have to have a mostly untarnished morality to be a good man, whereas 'nice' is a softer praise -- wellmeaning and chivalrous and tries, perhaps. 'Decent guy' covers it, maybe, unless people say things about that, too? I still haven't seen Sousa because download issues but it sounds like 'good man' may apply there from what you say.

"It's emotionally manipulative to tell a girl you love her when you think you're about to die!" (Yeah, no. Although it's clichéd, I'll give them that.)

I always thought it was probably not the most helpful thing for the girl or for the person who saved it up for that moment rather than doing something sooner. But then you can cut someone some slack if they're about to die. They're not trying to manipulate, just to get this thing off their chest that probably feels like the one last thing they must do/say. It's kind of... lacking in compassion to judge it.

[kattahj]

The can't-tell-the-partner thing is done quite interestingly in Grimm, which I think you gave up after an ep or two.

Yeah, I only saw the pilot of that one. Might change someday, but there's a lot of TV in my life right now, so probably not any time soon.

A character would have to have a mostly untarnished morality to be a good man, whereas 'nice' is a softer praise -- wellmeaning and chivalrous and tries, perhaps

True enough - and nice is more behaviour than morality, really. Decent guy works. Interestingly, I think good guy is slightly softer than good man. There are many characters I'd call good guy without going all the way to good man. "Good people", used in singular, seems to be a thing now too, I don't know what that comes from.

I still haven't seen Sousa because download issues but it sounds like 'good man' may apply there from what you say.

I think he tries, and usually succeeds, but not always. Latest ep was the first time he flipped his fucking shit, so now he's got a bunch of haters. But then, I think fandom reactions to a character often has more to do with personal preference than the character's actual actions - which is fine, that's as it should be, it's just not so good to conflate the two.

I always thought it was probably not the most helpful thing for the girl or for the person who saved it up for that moment rather than doing something sooner.

That's very true. This was in Agents of SHIELD and the characters quarrelling about who gets the oxygen, so it's a shut-up-and-survive-for-me kind of situation. There was a similar thing going on with Hale in Lost Girl, though I don't think you watched that far. And while "I love you, don't die" isn't the BEST way to spill your guts, I'm with you on the whole don't judge thing.

[roseveare]

I think "good people" as in "he's/she's good people" with one singular person has a US dialect origin but I couldn't say exactly where. 'Decent guy' or 'good guy' work, I think. The latter does sound softer than 'good man'.

Always the haters. *sigh* When I was, like, 18, I went once or twice onto this site where you could throw darts at Worf (when he first came onto DS9 and there was a... resistance to the change of dynamic, shall we say, this was at that point. There was one for Wesley on Angel a bit later, but I didn't throw darts at Wesley, I'd always liked him). I think that was the last time I had any use for the character hate.

Um. Did they kill Hale for real in Lost Girl? I know that people were upset. Did they ever fix it or anything? I haven't watched the show after season 1 but it sounded like that was something that sucked for the fans.

[EDIT: How did this post have that many typos?]

[kattahj]

I remember the Wesley dart board, I never used it either. I did hate Lonnie on SeaQuest, and Leonardo DiCaprio... I must have been around 18 too. I guess that's the universal age of hate. :-)

Um. Did they kill Hale for real in Lost Girl?

Well, the instance I mentioned where he confessed his love was earlier, when he was trying to keep Kenzi safe. But... I think so? I haven't actually watched most of season 5, but in season 4 they killed first him, then Kenzi, and then in early season 5 it looked like they'd bring Kenzi back but not Hale, and I couldn't be bothered to keep watching. I mean, obviously there were other things about the eps I didn't enjoy at that point, I didn't stop watching just because they sank my ship. It was just a contributing factor.

[miaharthur]

That's the South. Gotta be. We have a whole code. "He's/She's good people." is an actual good thing. The speaker is vouching for the subject of the sentence. I think that's how it means more than the actual words. It's not just saying the subject is a good person, it is that the speaker is adding the weight of their own reputation to the statement.

"Bless his/her/your heart." is emphatically not a good thing. I saw a program the other day where the host was from California and he was bugging this older lady in Tennessee, and she pulls that out. We were laughing so hard, because the guy clearly thought it meant she liked him.