Quick quick now!

[red_satin_doll]

1) The deadline is tomorrow, Friday the 20th at midnight for  both otherworldlyric challenge #166 , "Easy Way Out" by Gotye, and slayerstillness challenge 20 "Love Song for a Vampire. More entries are needed - and I'm sitting both of these out, so don't look at me. I'm just gonna sit back and enjoy the pretties this time around

Comments

[eilowyn]

I've been reading a bunch of French post-structuralists the past couple weeks, and I think I understand the problem with fandom: we over-identify with our favorites (be it ship, character, show, whatevs), so when someone insults that ship/character/show, we take it as a personal blow. de Certeau (the guy I've been reading the most) has this thing about "strategies" and "tactics" - strategies are the ways "the system" or "the man" or hegemony makes us conform to the dominant narrative, and tactics are developed by individuals to navigate those strategies. We are given a media narrative and told the strategic meaning by the dominant culture. You can "buy in" to the message given, or you can deconstruct it and take what meaning you want from it

[endeni]

Oh, wow, that was quite a witty and well thought out comment! *_*

[velvetwhip]

Okay, that is easily the finest and most elegant defense of shipping I've ever read. I think I might build a shrine to you.

Gabrielle

[kwritten]

I think what a lot of people (like me) find so distasteful about shipper wars is that the biggest are between to het relationships, with a girl oscillating from ship to ship. The big shipper wars - BAngel/Spuffy and DElena/StElena - that I am familiar with are like this: they take the main female and create a scenario in which the fandom conversation isn't "wow what an interesting female character" but instead becomes: "so which guy do YOU think is better?"

Shipper wars are about the guy and dressed up to be about the actual awesome woman in the middle*.

*the one exception to this rule (that I've seen) has been either in the case of M/M vs. CANON M/F (which is troubling) or in the case of Lost Girl, which has a bisexual protagonist

[red_satin_doll]

I don't have any problem with shippers. I love them I think they are cute.

I have A GIANT PROBLEM with fandom IGNORING female characters for the sake of "which GUY is BETTER" debates that are completely pointless.

I think your thoughts about shipping being a part of one's identity are beautiful.

But as a deconstructionist myself, I'd also really like fandom to start questioning WHY there is a division between Spuffy and Bangel fans, instead of holding so tightly to that division. Right now, it's not creating a positive fandom experience.

And quite frankly, these dialogue ignore the female character at the apex of them, while decrying that everything is about her.

Bangel vs. Spuffy is about Angel vs. Spike

And quite frankly, I don't care. I care about Buffy. I care about Elena. And Bo and Allison and Lydia and Zoe and Lemon and all the ladies.

... but I'm still wondering why the crowning definition in fandom isn't "Buffy stan" it's "Spuffy shipper" ... because I'd prefer a space where the former exceeds the latter.THIS THIS THIS

[eilowyn]

I'm of two minds about this: if we say shipper wars dismiss female characters, are we dismissing fans who identify with the males involved? You're completely right that a lot of shipping comes down to guy A vs. guy B, but there are people out there who identify with the guys more than the female at the center of the triangle (this is the point where I wonder why there can't be more shows like Lost, because they handled the triangle by making it a better square

[kwritten]

if we say shipper wars dismiss female characters, are we dismissing fans who identify with the males involved?
When those people participate in female character-bashing, slut shaming, and misogynist dialogue? Yes. I am okay with it.

The problem with the shipper-dialogue is that it is NOT female-character centric or even polite to females. Especially the shipper wars.

If you want to be a fan of Spike and debate with an Angel fan. Be my guest. (even though I think that discussion is pretty fucking pointless)

Don't drag Buffy through the mud and call it loving her.

(This is not directed towards you personally, Lex I LOVE YOU, but rather the shipper mentality as it has stood for some time now.)

if this is latent misogyny, that they identify with the male characters because society values male characters over female charactersI'd say probably a great deal of this. And also misogyny in the media industry, which gives us more varied male characters to id with

(pt 2)

[kwritten]

if we say shipper wars dismiss female characters, are we dismissing fans who identify with the males involved?
I don't care, tbh.

Call me a feminazi or something. I'll probably like it at this point. There's so much shit in media production that just ... reveals how much people don't care for women. If you are a male character's fan. Be a fan. Don't say it's about the ship - because what it is about is that you think your baby's worth is determined by the poon he scores.

And that's gross.

If shippers can completely dismiss the female on such an epic scale that I notice (and I pay no the fuck attention to this most days), then I'm all about ignoring you if you are actually in this for the guy, but pretending that you care what happens to the female. Wear your spots proudly.

((I may be really overly upset about the number of female character deaths that have occurred this year. TOO FUCKING MANY. It's only March. IT'S ONLY MARCH AND THREE OF MY FAVORITE FEMALES ON TELEVISION HAVE DIED ALREADY THIS YEAR. AND GIA. I'm so NOT in the

Re: (pt 2)

[red_satin_doll]

(((I am really emotional and probably shouldn't be talking about this. It's been a really hard fucking year for ladies.)))

But this NEEDS to be said. Everything you've said? That's where I'm at.

Nail, head. Head, desk.

And these are exactly the patterns I identified (or was trying to) when I spoke about the way the Dawn & Spike friendship is conventionally portrayed. It's not just about sexual/romantic ships. It's the overwhelming gender-centric pattern.

Re: (pt 2)

[kwritten]

I'm not usually this angry. I generally see the wars and the flame throwing and I laugh and stay out of it and engage with happy people and ship my ships and not really care.

But I lost FOUR ladies in three months.

That's unconscionable.

Any dialogue right now that is pro-males in a way that becomes anti-female, I'm not about it. I don't have the patience right now. I'm at my wits' end with loss this year. Too many female characters have died.

It's the overwhelming gender-centric pattern.
What makes me so frustrated is when I'm legitimately trying to have a constructive conversation - that places women first - and because of the negativity that these gender-centric patterns upheld in shipper spaces, no conversation can even begin.
So I'm sitting there, trying to talk about how awesome a relationship dynamic is and on one hand I have the shippers who yell "YES EVERYTHING IS PERFECT ISN'T IT WONDERFUL" and on the other hand the anti-shippers screaming "YES BUT THIS OTHER THING IS SO MUCH BETTER" and then in the middle those (like

Re: (pt 2)

[red_satin_doll]

But I lost FOUR ladies in three months.

That's unconscionable.

Yes it is. I've spent 40+ plus years watching horrible bullshit - and it's unconscionable that we're no better off than we were four decades ago in some respects.

But then again I watched Tara die only two years ago and I'm still in mourning. I refuse to watch AtS for that very reason. I will not watch them destroy Cordy and Fred. I finally had to turn off Bones this year - a silly bit of entertainment that happened to have three dynamic, ethnically and racially diverse professional women in the sciences, and focused on them in their careers - because they turned the female protagonist into a de facto moron. They didn't kill her but they broke her. And people are ok with that.

The fact that those ladies existed at all is something to celebrate. The fact that "fridging" is still considered ok as a "plot device" is horrifying.

and then in the middle those (like yourself) who just sigh and say: "ugh this is ugly I am so put off by fandom I don't want to talk about it

Re: (pt 2)

[clockwork_hart1]

Interestingly, my shippy fic has always been few and far between. I came into the fandom as a spuffy shipper, but when I started writing, I never felt I could add anything to that place. I certainly didn't have a 36 chapter epic to tell like some of my favourite authors, and I wasn't confident with pwp and still am not spuffy-wise

Re: (pt 2)

[red_satin_doll]

I played with the boys after that because they had become easier to write

I think that relates to what drove the first Star Trek fanfic Kirk/Spock shippers - they wanted to write about interesting characters and relationships, but there were no interesting female characters to be found. So they subverted canon.

Nowadays there ARE rich, interesting female characters but they are not being written in fandom about to the extent that the guys are.

I challenged myself to write it and then became addicted to studying their complexities in a way that I hadn't felt with the boys and hence why now they're more dear to my heart. I think I'm "lucky" (?) in that I never had to make that "translation" or mental leap. The ladies were ALWAYS were it was at for me. The opposite is the hard part for me - I'm not anti-guy, I have brothers and uncles and male friends and I love them. But the interest just isn't there for me

Re: (pt 2)

[clockwork_hart1]

It wasn't that the girls were less interesting to me, but more that they were challenging because they were so rich and diverse, I didn't want to fuck it up and I already HAD the experience writing the guys. I just found them even more entrancing as I explored them. i never thought I'd love Dawn and her facets in the way I do now if I hadn't started writing her - and I'm so glad I did. Thinking about it, all of the spuffy shippy fic I have written is all about character exploration and the smaller moments between them that I fell in love with.

Also, that. Icon is fully of beauty oh my god.

Re: (pt 2)

[red_satin_doll]

I was terrified to write - or write about - Buffy because I didn't think I could do her justice, fully wrap my hands and my mind around her complexity, that I couldn't because I had too big of a Buffy-shaped blindspot, etc. I'm not sure that I've ever "got her right" or that I'll ever post the fic I've written since last September.

Also, that. Icon is fully of beauty oh my god.

It's been around for several years - I don't know who made it, but penny_lane_42 was using it, and I had one spot left and HAD to snag it. It was time to bring it back out of the closet IMO.

Whoever gave me the paid account has no idea what they've done. Once upon a time I was content with 15 icons. Now 32 isn't enough - I WANT MORE, MORE DAMNIT! *lol*

Re: (pt 2)

[kwritten]

The fact that "fridging" is still considered ok as a "plot device" is horrifying.
It's so gross I can't....

And ouch. I didn't know that about Bones and that makes me so sad. I'm a couple seasons behind (due to not having netflix in BKK) but I had serious over-identification ~feelings w/r/t Bones. ugh.

I feel like I'm being somewhat misrepresented here
I'm sorry. I was trying to make a general statement about shipper-fatigue. Which I have come across many, many times. And I was placing you there because I know that you have shipper-fatigue (especially with Spike/Dawn shippers). I was NOT saying that there's anything wrong with feeling this way - but that the problem is that the culture surrounding Spike/Dawn shipping (for example) has become such a toxic place that the conversations I've had with you have centered on how frustrated you are with the gendered-centrism of the conversation. Which is totally fine and valid. I understand and agree with you. And it happens all over fandom. Something pops up for me that feels really