Snape Fans on Cloud 9

[rattlesnakeroot]

As several of us here predicted last week, there are millions more Snape fans now than before Deathly Hallows opened worldwide. It's really awe-inspiring. I keep asking myself: "Is this my Fandom?" We've never felt as if we had the world on our side before, or even that the movie-makers had anything to say to us. Even people prepared to hate

Comments

[princessofsnark]

Speaking strictly about the movie and not the book:

I'm sure Harry was still a bit in shock to have all of that dumped on him at one time. It would have been difficult enough to process over a period of time, much less a couple of hours. So, I can see why he wasn't all that connected to James. He knew him the least of the three men there, and he had just seen, again -- only this time he was able to understand what happened -- the way his mother sacrificed herself for him. So, I think he was reaching out to her more than the others. Then, when she said "Always," which was what he'd just heard Severus say, that must have brought a good bit of that back to him. I have a feeling as he was watching Snape's memories, he may have thought about SWM himself and remembered what his father had done to Snape (in OotP it shows James definitely as the ring leader), and he was able to put 2 and 2 together and see how James came between Snape and Lily (although I'm no great fan of Lily and agree she used Snape from shortly after they met until she could find a chance to dump him).

I do like the way they played up Sev's and Lily's childhood friendship and the scene on the riverbank where they make the leaves of the tree fly like little birds. I wish they'd done a bit better shot of Young Sev making the twig turn into a butterfly and land on Lily's hand. That was so sweet.

Getting back to Harry, on top of seeing all of this, he also finds that the person he thought despised him was actually risking his life every day to protect him. And, for all those years he, Harry, had looked for reasons to hate Snape, and then had witnessed the horrible attack on him and been with him when Snape died, giving what little comfort he could.

And, there was also the little detail that he was on his way to let Voldemort kill him. So, I think he was just looking for comfort from his mother and the two men he knew best: Sirius and Lupin. He really didn't know his dad, and what he'd seen to that time wasn't all that positive. No wonder there wasn't much connection.

[rattlesnakeroot]

The movie people couldn't really do much with James in that scene. What's Harry going to do? Ask James "Why were you such a bully? Why did you let Voldemort kill my mother? Why did you trust Peter? Why did you let me become a horcrux so that now I have to die?"

Those are good questions, but they wouldn't fit too well in the scene, LOL.

[princessofsnark]

*snicker, snicker* That just about sums James up, doesn't it?

[mad_half_hour]

???

I don't understand something. You, as a fan of Snape, should be all about forgiveness, redemption, and the like, yes?

Why then do you portray this attitude of such unforgiveness toward other characters? Half the things you blame James for was in no way his fault. Yes, he was a bully and a brat as a child, and that *was* his fault. But it was also stated that he grew out of that, and changed through his own ability, which is a *good* thing. He didn't "let" Voldemort kill Lily. In fact, he died trying his damned best, without a wand and knowing he would die, to protect his wife and son. That doesn't deserve mockery--it is brave, and a beautiful example of the things love can give you the strength to do. He trusted Peter because he was his friend, and as far as he knew, he had no reason *not* to--most people trust their friends, which is not a bad thing, or a fault. It is hardly a bad thing that James didn't spend all of his time in his final years closing himself off from everyone and trusting no one. He put his faith in the wrong person: it was a mistake, not a weighted decision made knowing all of the information truly at work behind the scenes. And James certainly didn't "let" Harry become a horcrux. That implies he gave some sort of permission, and considering James was *dead* when that happened, he most definitely didn't.

I find it so sad that you can forgive one character of so many mistakes, and try to villify another in the same turn for *also* making mistakes. James and Severus are guilty of the same crime: they made mistakes.

Trying to crucify or mock James doesn't make Snape look any better. It does, however, make you look like a hypocrite.

[rattlesnakeroot]

I'm allowed to mock James here on my Livejournal. Because in the real world we are allowed to state our opinions without the censorship that some forums impose.

I don't "owe" the James fans anything. They have had the past ten years to lord it over the Snape fans, even when Deathly Hallows hardly made James look better - in fact, JKR made him look worse by making him unarmed in Godric's Hollow and without a single plan for getting his wife and baby out of the house unhurt.

I agree with you that James made mistakes, just as Snape made mistakes. But I don't have to like him as a character to make other people feel better. I'm just being honest.

[rattlesnakeroot]

I don't know who you are or if you are familiar with anything else I've written, but I've been critical of James since 2003 when I first came to Fandom. So I've actually been very consistant.

There is no canon that James ever changed, period. If you can show me one quote to prove that James changed before he died and wasn't just a show-off or a reckless thrill seeker, please astonish me with it. And I mean a quote from the book, not just your opinion or some fan-fictiony account of what James was "supposed" to be.

ETA: For instance, why did Dumbledore have to hide the Cloak from him so he wouldn't sneak out of the house? Read Lily's letter to Sirius in HBP, written just months before they died.

[ms_arithmancer]

That might have been a happy side effect of Dumbledore's obsession with the Deathly Hallows, actually... but the point about the letter certainly still applies.

[snapes_witch]

When given the opportunity to show this so-called change in James Potter, JKR wrote a story showing that he and Sirius were still bullies before their 7th year.

I'd describe standing in front of the Dark Lord without one's wand to be foolhardy rather than brave. It didn't bring forth an ancient protection charm as Lily's bravery did.

[princessofsnark]

We are about forgiveness and redemption. But, in order to achieve those things you have to show remorse and a desire to change. James Potter never showed either. He continued to be a petulant child during the time his and his family's lives were being protected -- by others who were on the front line.

And, to not have taken EVERY precaution, knowing that Voldemort was looking for Harry to kill him, is a sign of immature arrogance, as was having a "trusted" friend as SK (be it Sirius or Wormtail) instead of a powerful wizard like Dumbledore.

As is stated in another post here, Ms. Rowling had the chance to show us the happy homelife or the courageous things that James supposedly did to have "thrice defied" Voldemort. Instead, she showed us the continued adolescent behavior of two men who, as Order members, should have been acting more mature.

Severus Snape deserves forgiveness and redemption because he recognized his wrongs and set about trying to right them. He did not whine around about being stuck at Hogwarts as a spy and not being able to go have adventures with his buds. He spent his life following up on his promise of "Anything," and that is the difference in forgiving Snape and looking at James as an arrogant toerag.

Pt. 1

[mad_half_hour]

You don't know if James showed remorse or not--he was never shown. All things considered, James Potter is *not* a vital part of the Harry Potter verse, and to show his story would have been stepping away from the story of the books (namely, Harry's adventures). Snape's remorse was shown because, in the end, it *was* vital to Harry's story. Without Snape making some really tragic, stupid mistakes, Harry's adventure would have never happened. Likewise, had he never shown remorse, Harry's adventure would have ended before it began. Ergo, Snape's story was necessary, while James' was not. It has, however, been stated in the books that James did change for the better, and just because that isn't seen doesn't mean it didn't happen. To ignore that is to ignore canon (as Harry is not typically an unreliable narrator unless JKR purposefully *shows* that Harry had information wrong, Lupin's statements that James grew up can be taken at point value).

As for your opinion of James not being "properly protected" against Voldemort--that is not a sign of immaturity or arrogance, except to those who *want* it to be a sign of that. What it is a sign of is trust in the good of people, and perhaps naivety. James sincerely trusted his friends--he saw in them a willingness to die for him, likely because he would have done the same for them. It was an error, but in the end, not something inherently evil or bad as you make it out to be. It was a mistake. And Dumbledore, while an option, would not have worked for the narrative--in a real world setting? I have no doubt James' would have gone that route. But considering there would be no story if James' had made the *best* choice, it is quite clear why he chose a friend. That said, as the narrative must be taken as actual happenstance, yes, James should have choosen Dumbledore as SK. The fact that he didn't is still not a sign of arrogance, but again, one of naivety, trust, and even stupidity. It was a stupid, stupid mistake, but not ~evil~ or ~bad~.

As for what you are refering to in your third paragraph... I assume you are talking about that short story thing JKR wrote? I'm afraid I only read it once, quite a while ago, so I honestly cannot recall much of what it entailed, or where it took place on the timeline. I do know, though, that yeah, James and Sirius were acting goofy and like young adults, which they were at the time. Not only that, but they were, canonly, people that could and did laugh in the face of challenge and danger. They were still young then, with a lot to prove and a weight on their shoulders that, knowing their personality types, they were probably fit to bursting with pride and ego about. They were new to the Order, if I remember correctly, so they likely hadn't yet truly felt the severity of the situation. Be that as it may, one must not be the epitome of serious to do the right thing, and considering they were fighting against the Death Eaters, they obviously knew what was right and what was wrong in the overall state of things. It should also be taken into account that this was *one* moment in James entire life, a brief flash that highlghts, along with his immaturity and boyishness, an eager willingness to throw himself in the line of danger for the lives of others; considering where Snape was during this time, I honestly can't see the problem in James being on the side of light, but still needing to grow up. Being immature, being arrogant, while annoying to some, is not a crime or the act of a villain. JKR's reason for selecting it to write is her own, and I'm not here to state that I know what's going on in her head or why she found it worth writing or pointing out. I could speculate, but why bother when it will only be my opinion in the end? I suggest you don't either, because you aren't her, and any weight you put on that short selection is pure assumption on your part.

Re: Pt. 1

[snapes_witch]

Of course, it's my assumption opinion that what you think is boys being boys is the bullying of Muggles and then leaving them to deal with DEs (without magic). In fact, I'm hard pressed to remember any scene in which James isn't bullying someone. Oh yeah when he stood in front of Voldemort without a wand.

Pt. 2

[mad_half_hour]

The truth is there is only a difference in forgiving Snape and forgiving James to those that, due to whatever reasons, don't *want* to forgive James (or, along a similar vien, forgive Snape--I managed both, so I honestly don't understand either side of this 'one or the other' mindset many manage to have), and that, when it comes down to it, Snape is a far more fleshed out character than the other.

Putting aside personal bias shows, however, that JKR never had an intention to draw James as some "bully till the end" that some love to protray him as-- she stated, quite clearly, that he had changed for the better, and that is that. Nothing more is shown about him because James is not a vital character, and his story is not an important piece of Harry's journey.

When it comes down to it though, you can, of course, think what you want. It won't be canon, but you are free to enjoy your speculation.

Re: Pt. 2

[rattlesnakeroot]

Great, another lecturer here to call on me because I disagree with them. Oy vey.

Look, I spent years debating about James, trying to find something to like about him. I was shocked by his behavior in OotP, then I spent years of listening to arguments about how "boys will be boys," and people telling me not to bash him while Snape was vilified as ugly and mean.

And the truth is, I did not like James after reading OotP one my own. JKR showed him to be a bully and a popular brat. And nothing I've ever read about him since is going to make me start liking him. He is not the type of person I could ever admire, EVER. I don't know why Lily married him, and indeed, no one really knows why she married him - even Harry couldn't figure it out. Sirius and Lupin couldn't really explain it either.

And nothing I wrote about the movie is untrue. James is dead on the floor and Harry barely looks at him in the forest. The only reason they didn't show the deaths is because it would make James look even more inconsequential and weak, so JKR probably didn't want that. She likes him - but I don't have to - it's a free world.

I imagine the folks at WB cut most of Snape's Worst Memory from OotP because it didn't cast either Lily or James in a great light, and certainly not Sirius. It gave away too much about Snape friendship with Lily and showed him being outnumbered and upside down. Happily, they left us a short part of his memory, enough to show exactly what James was really like, and it is straight from the canon (see my icon).

I'm not of the opinion that in order to like Snape, I also have to like James. That is illogical. I don't have to be fair or prove anything to anyone. Go away and like him. Have fun. Celebrate James - I couldn't care less.

Re: Pt. 2

[princessofsnark]

It never ceases to amaze me how James fans take the few lines about him in the books and build this wonderful, brave, loving, caring, person who fought courageously for the Order and trusted his friends so completely that he failed to take steps to protect his own family.

I fell for the Sts. James and Lily thing from Sorcerers Stone, where everyone was weeping and wailing over their deaths so much, even though so many others had died as well. I thought there had to be something really special about the two of them for all of that to be going on. I fell for the "family album picture" of Lily and James dancing and so happy, that is shown in the movies. Even though I have been a Snape fan since Sorcerers Stone, I could never understand his belligerent attitude toward Harry and his snide remarks about Harry's dead father. They didn't seem to go with a man who was casting a counter spell to save Harry's life, or one who owed Harry's father a life debt -- evidently something very powerful and serious in the Wizarding World. Why would having someone save your life make you hate them?

Remus Lupin speaks so glowingly about Lily, and talks about James rather kindly, but does not go overboard with his praise, as Sirius does. I got the feeling at that time that James wasn't the saint we'd been led to believe, no matter what Sirius Black said.

Then, along comes Order of the Phoenix. Oops. What happened to St. James? James is an arrogant bully and the leader of a gang that reminded me of Dudley Dursley and his group.

Oh, but, Dudley was a bully and James was just having fun, not really bullying. Not like Dudley's bullying, which everyone could see, because James wasn't a spoiled brat like Dudley -- or, was he? Hmmmm. Another of JKR's infamous parallels. Another way to show us how differently we can look at the same situation just by changing characters we don't like into those we do?

Even Harry was sickened by his father's actions as he had been the recipient of many of Dudley's "torments." So, he knew what it was like to be the victim of bullying. He could identify more with Severus Snape than he could with James Potter.

That was when I started disliking James, not because I liked Snape, but because JKR gave me reasons to dislike James, and later, Lily. I admire Lily and her brave sacrifice for her child, but that doesn't mean I have to like her. I think she was another spoiled brat who was used to getting her way and that's one of the things that came between her and Petunia -- the special way her family treated her because she was a witch.

So, I don't have to forgive James, or look for whatever canon it is that you seem to have found to show the miraculous change in him (I must have read another series, because, other than what was said by biased good friends, there is nothing "neutral" to show that James Potter was ever anything besides an arrogant toerag. Did he deserve to die because of that. Of course not. But, it's like the person who wanders into a known "bad neighborhood" at night and is surprised when they're mugged. If you know that "Action A" might lead to a negative result, then you might want to avoid it. If you know the baddest ass wizard in the world is gunning for you and your family, I don't care how much you trust your friends or some spell, I would think you'd want to have your wand at the ready...just in case.