Random meta thought about SPN

[ratherastory]

Spoilers for Season 5 in this post

I'm not LJ-cutting this. If you haven't seen Season 5, skip the post. :)

So I've been obsessing a bit a lot about the show, specifically about the whole Sam problem

Comments

[primrose_1]

I think that the perfect dramatic moment will be that Dean DOES forgive Sam. Right in Detroit at the very most crucial moment of Sam giving in. I think it's the only thing that CAN save him.

I don't mind that Dean has had a hard time forgiving Sam. I don't want the path back to redemption to be cheap or easy. Yeah, I want the brothers back to what they were, but I don't want there to be any shortcuts.

[ratherastory]

Oh, I'm not demanding it immediately, don't get me wrong. From a dramatic/narrative/character point of view, it's absolutely fine that Dean can't bring himself to forgive Sam. Understandable. Dean is human, and he's so close to the situation that he can't see straight.

I'm just hoping the writers know it and are going to use that to redeem both boys at a critical juncture.

No, having Dean just forgive Sam off-the-bat would be cheap and easy and disappointing.

Of course, I'm a sucker for redemption plotlines, so maybe I'm biased that way. ;)

[borgmama1of5]

Oh, I agree with you the distance between the boys is devastating and it better get fixed!

I personally see it that Sam has to forgive himself. He hates himself for what he did and until he gives himself absolution I don't think any of Dean's efforts will penetrate. And of course it doesn't help that Dean's opinion of himself is shaky with his feelings about what he did in hell and, perhaps the realization that his going to hell gave Sam the push over the edge. Not sure if he's getting the second part just yet.

Really, I just wish Kripke would let the fans write the reconcilation scene and get it over with!

(Plug for a friend--did you read sandymg's The Road to Detroit is Paved with Hell? http://sandymg.livejournal.com/14620.html Addresses this problem incredibly!)

[ratherastory]

I read it all in one gulp last night, and now I have to go back and read it properly and leave thought-out feedback because it was awesome and made my heart clench and do funny things in my chest while I was reading it. I've already plugged it to a few people on my flist, too.

Sam does have to forgive himself, but I think that right now he's convinced he doesn't deserve forgiveness. I figure Dean's forgiveness will be a good starting point for him. *crosses fingers*

[pkwench]

World's longest reply coming. Oh, eat me, LJ. I actually overbabbled and have to split my overly long reply in half. BOTHER. It's vexing enoguh in a comment fic meme!

Yes, yes, yes, a few hundred times over yes. Sam is in a doom spiral and, while I don't know if it will save him, the only hope for some kind of salvation is going to come in the form of forgiveness, unconditional, from Dean. It's the only way that he's ever going to be able to let some of it go himself.

But, there's Dean. Who I love to the moon and the stars, but yeah. Deano.

I've chewed over this a couple thousand times and I sort of think that Dean's constant inability to just forgive him stems from a couple of things. Most obviously, he sold his soul and went to hell for Sam. I think on some level he know that it was going to mess him up, but that he clung to this idea that Sam was Sam, good-hearted, puppy-eyed, can't we try to save the nice vampires Sam. I don't think for a minute that Dean had an inkling of how scared and desperate Sam was before he even died.

Super Long Reply Part II

[pkwench]

Continuing ...

Two more things and then I’ll shush. I don’t think Dean really gets it. In his mind, I think he just thinks that all Sam has to do is say no to the devil. Just like all he had to do was say no to Ruby. Say no to the things that were driving him half out of his mind with visions. It’s all he had to do, really. Why couldn’t the kid have just done it? How hard is it to say no? It’s not like he was on the rack in hell, after all. It’s not like day after day after day he was torn apart and put back together with fire and hatred and pain just so that he could go through it again. It’s not like he was being tortured, for crying out loud, and having someone whisper constantly in his ear “c’mon, just do it, the pain will stop if you just do it, you’re so tired, I know you’re so tired and you hurt, but all you have to do is say yes”. That never happened to Sam. Sure, he had some headaches and some bad dreams and it sucks that the one nice girlfriend he had got roasted, but come on. He just has to say no. I don’t think Dean's

Re: Super Long Reply Part II

[ratherastory]

LOL

I feel really, really mean for composing such a short reply to your well-thought-out comment.

In short: yes, what you said.

I've been thinking all those things but I was too lazy to write it all down in what was essentially just a throwaway comment about the meaning of forgiveness.

Thank you for putting this so much more eloquently than I ever could.

Poor boys.

Re: Super Long Reply Part II

[pkwench]

The amount of word puke I just did there is unforgivable. I feel kinda sheepish. It's just you'd mentioned that concept of the very bad life of Sam Winchester and forgiveness and, as it's clearly something that I've thought about for quite some time, I just had some kind of wretched fangirl seizure - which I should have done in my own LJ. Ack. The shortened version that I should have replied with was: "yes, I absolutely agree. Sam doesn't stand a chance of finding his redemption, let alone peace if Dean doesn't forgive him. Unfortunately for them both, Dean's a twisty mess in his own right."

[sandymg]

Yep. Forgiveness. In a nutshell. Ditto to what everyone said here. They have to forgive themselves and each other. Remember what they had and decide what they want to have. Figure out what it means to win. To lose. To bleed. Learn to hope. To believe again. Not in things unseen, but rather, in what's right in front of them.

[ratherastory]

Yes. Yes and then some.

I read "The Road To Detroit Is Paved With Hell" in one giant gulp yesterday, and all my resolutions to comment on each chapter went out the window because you twisted me up in knots and I kept clicking on the next chapter just so I could find out what happened next.

I am going to go back and re-read it, and I will leave coherent comments then, I swear. All I would have been able to manage last night would have been incoherent blithering.

[sandymg]

You do realize that putting out the temptation of chapter by chapter comments to a needy, also semineurotic writer is like putting red meat in front of a dog. I will have to come and hound you till you do this :)

[ratherastory]

I understand this fully, because I too am a needy semineurotic writer. Oh, who am I kidding, my neuroses are full-blown. :P

Feel free to hound me if I don't do it promptly. :)

[claudiapriscus]

I agree with you. But I'm really commenting to say that the Google comment sent me into a fit of the giggles, imagining Sam going to work for Google, like it was some sort of AA group for people fighting against their evil destinies. (Google: We're destined to be evil, but we're really trying not to be!)

[ratherastory]

Hee!

I will totally cop to putting the Google comment in for shits and giggles. I'm glad someone enjoyed it!