"Abuse: The intentional and malicious causing of physical and/or emotional harm or pain to another when such treatment is not justified or warranted
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Looking at both definitions it is clear that there is only one difference. In the first example a person can be harmed intentionally if they deserved it. For example, would it be abuse to cause harm to a person who is trying to harm your family? I decided to make two simple examples:
Brian,
If I see a person do something I consider morally apprehensible should I point it out to them? Furthermore, should that person cause harm upon another, a grievous harm lets say, should I not hurt that person in kind to ensure they will never hurt a person like that again? Isn’t it the problem in today’s society that people are too wishy washy and do not stand up for what they believe. Stand in front of the wave, and even more to the point, push it back? If a person cuts you off in traffic and then flips you off doesn’t that person deserve an ass beating? Likewise if a person cause’s harm to another in my own house, where I should have more control, is it not my responsibility to remove them from my home, set them straight, or even to the extreme find a way to cause him or her an equal amount of pain?
I ask you then, if Tonia does something I see as hurtful to my friend. Do I not have an obligation to hurt her in kind. Do what I can with my power to strike at her so she does not do it again? Should I not remove her from Final Haven? Bane her? If I see her as the one at fault shouldn’t I try and hurt her. Cause her pain so she will think twice about hurting another one of my friends? According to you I should show her grace, but that goes against the code. According to your definition it would not be abuse, and more to the point, it would be justified. Why does Tonia get a pass when others don’t? Is it because you are the only one wise enough to dish out such justice?
Tonia,
I read your definition that any time a person purposefully causes pain to another it is abuse. Should not a person sacrifice to the ends of the earth for the ones they love? Should not a person love so completely he or she continues suffering no matter the cost? If you do something that CLEARLY is causing your husband pain, say deciding to play a game, is that not abuse according to the definition? If your willful actions, even though you see it as an expression of personal freedom, cause another harm, is it not abuse? Who willfully chooses to do things that destroy a family? Is that not abuse?
You are both wrong. Worse, you are both hypocrites. It hurts me that you are doing this to each other. I am sad for you , that you cannot see past how right you both need to be.
I shudder to think that these so called examples could be real. Taken to two extreme opposites, what I really see is a failure to allow oneself to grown and others to grow as well.
If someone cuts me off in traffic, yeah I might yell in the comfort of my own car, or flip them off, but I end up feeling a little badly about it later. I don't know why they are doing it, perhaps they have a reason, perhaps they honestly didn't see me. There is no walking in another's shoes, but I try to live my life in that perspective. On the other hand, I have often allowed myself to take on the guilt of mistakes made. Missteps in life and philosophy are meant to happen. Without them we are stagnant and living in shells. I have decided to live my life without guilt. It really is just that easy. If I neglect to do something, I must have had a reason, whether it is beknownst to me or not. When I feel guilt, I know that I have made a wrong choice, and I learn to accept my choice. Guilt does not dwell in me. It's not productive. My choices are my own, and if I am willing to accept my outcomes, then I should feel no remorse for them.
Justice is not ours to dispense, but knowledge is. True justice comes in a person's soul. I'm not even talking about religion, but in the life they lead. If I hurt someone intentionally, I will begin to reap what I have sown. Justice comes in the way I view myself after making that choice. If I hurt someone unintentionally, I may or may not see what I have done. How can justice be dispensed when no fault is recognized? If I don't feel my choice is wrong, any justice dispensed on to me is simply vengance. To make just or right is to realize a wrong has been done.
Mistakes are when we recognize a choice we will not make again. Some times we cause pain to others because they cannot accept our choices. Again, I have to say our choices are our own.
Your post is highly emotional, assumptive and accusational without all of the facts about the situation or what I was trying to learn here.
Two months ago you suggested that I shouldn't post things about Brian or my marriage in my LJ as it is destructive and counterintuitive to any rebuilding we might do. I heeded your advice. I even went back and retroactively made any disparaging posts about him non-public. I went to the marriage conference. I attempted to reconcile. I used all of the tools that I felt I had and tried to work with what we had left of our marriage. I cannot do anymore right now and so I've moved out and back in with my parents with the expectation of separating and trying to get myself to a place where I can be more clear about my decisions. My inquiry here was with sincere interest in learning and examining my own assumptions because I felt I needed to do some reality testing. I have no interest in addressing your quasi-personal post point by point, other than to say that I've made no decision about going back to Shifted Lands or the status of my marriage. The only decision I have made is that I'm too fucked up to keep spinning my wheels here and I'm sorry to hear that you feel that me moving out was a bad decision.
"Should not a person love so completely he or she continues suffering no matter the cost?"
The answer is no. It's especially a BIG no when there is a child involved and the lover is no longer the only one suffering. The lover's misery affects more than just the lover, it affects the child, too.
The point of the post was to use each of your definitions against your own actions and to point out each of you are wrong, nothing more.
Brian does not adhere to his own definition of abuse and neither do you since you also cause harm.
If you have not made up your mind about shifted lands then why allow it to become a point of contention in your marriage? Why put Brian through suffering about it?
On the other hand I completely discount that this was some how some sincere attempt by either of you to figure out the higher meta physics of the word "abuse".
Lets say that EVERYONE who read this post agreed with Brian's definition would that give you comfort? On the other hand if everyone agreed with you would that some how justify you?
As for it being just an emotionally charged post? I spent a day writing it and showed it to a couple people with 3 edits in the attempt to not come off emotional. I will say it is a very hard post direct to the issue at hand.
If you feel that it is of to hurt 1 person (abuse) a person to protect another then yhe second definition needs a revision.
Also a little confused..are you saying you need to protect your child from Brian or are you saying thatbecause of your suffering you have been unable to be a good mother?
"I'd really like to hear reactions about these two definitions, not so much about which one is right and which one is wrong (unless you have a firm opinion as such), but moreso how you feel about the perspective and understanding of abuse of the person who wrote each definition."
This is from the original post. Since you decided to expose something I was trying to keep discreet, I'll admit that Brian wrote the first definition and I wrote the second. I was and still am learning about this issue. This was an honest attempt to grow and do some thinking.
If I'm an abuser or a bad person for separating from my husband at this time, I accept responsibility, but would not do anything different. I've never accused Brian of abusing Donovan. I have, however, been suffering so much (whether by my own design or the circumstances of this marriage) that I indeed have not been the best mother I could and should have been for my son. I accept responsibility for that, too, and am now trying to account for it. Things are so terribly embroiled and riddled with conflict now, it was not a safe and happy environment for Donovan. The decision for me to take Donovan with me was mutual and I've made every attempt to communicate with Brian on matters related to OUR son.
I'm sorry if you and Brian think I am a bad person. I'm sorry if anyone else feels the same. I'm not even denying that I may be making mistakes here, I'm just trying to gain some clarity and get to a point where I feel safe. Because the truth is I do not feel safe in many different ways.
If I see a person do something I consider morally apprehensible should I point it out to them?
Sure. If you feel it will help the situation, make it known.
Furthermore, should that person cause harm upon another, a grievous harm lets say, should I not hurt that person in kind to ensure they will never hurt a person like that again?
No. Should someone cause grievous harm unto another person, than your efforts should be focused on preventing any further harm. Often times causing harm to the offender does NOT accomplish this and only encourages negative and destructive behavior.
Isn’t it the problem in today’s society that people are too wishy washy and do not stand up for what they believe. Stand in front of the wave, and even more to the point, push it back?
I agree completely. Push back against the wave, but understand that the measures you’re suggesting are aiding the wave, not opposing it.
If a person cuts you off in traffic and then flips you off doesn’t that person deserve an ass beating?
So, if a person commits an action that causes harm (in this case, emotional irritation), than escalating that harm in retribution is justified? By that example the now beaten-up driver is well within his rights to kill the guy he cut off. That is simply wrong.
Likewise if a person cause’s harm to another in my own house, where I should have more control, is it not my responsibility to remove them from my home, set them straight, or even to the extreme find a way to cause him or her an equal amount of pain?
It is your responsibility to defend and protect yourself, your friends, and your home. If causing pain is the only way in which that can be accomplished, so be it - but your responsibility and justification for causing harm end there. The causal factors contributing to a person’s abusive behavior are not going to be solved by you dishing out violent justice.
I ask you then, if Tonia does something I see as hurtful to my friend. Do I not have an obligation to hurt her in kind. Do what I can with my power to strike at her so she does not do it again? Should I not remove her from Final Haven? Bane her? If I see her as the one at fault shouldn’t I try and hurt her. Cause her pain so she will think twice about hurting another one of my friends?
No, no, no, no, no, and no. There is no obligation to cause pain. You may be obligated to protect and defend your friend, but the causation of pain should be the last option to do so.
According to you I should show her grace, but that goes against the code. According to your definition it would not be abuse, and more to the point, it would be justified. Why does Tonia get a pass when others don’t? Is it because you are the only one wise enough to dish out such justice?
I have no idea what you’re talking about here, so I’ll leave it alone.
Should not a person sacrifice to the ends of the earth for the ones they love?
Yes.
Should not a person love so completely he or she continues suffering no matter the cost?
No. Loving completely does not mean endless suffering. Love is reciprocal. If either person is suffering endlessly, something is wrong. No one who truly loved another could abide hurting them as such and would find a way to make the pain stop - even if it meant being apart.
If you do something that CLEARLY is causing your husband pain, say deciding to play a game, is that not abuse according to the definition? If your willful actions, even though you see it as an expression of personal freedom, cause another harm, is it not abuse?
If I demand that someone serve me hand and foot and they refuse to do so, a grossly warped definition could call their denial of my pleasure “abuse”. Similarly, a person who wants to control someone else could claim that denial of that control is “abusive”, but that doesn’t hold up. The control is the abusive act, resisting it is both right and necessary.
Who willfully chooses to do things that destroy a family? Is that not abuse?
Why is it that the person who ends things is the one who gets blamed for destroying the family? The physical seperation of the people within the family does not equal its destruction, nor does the continued proximity of those same people equal a family's survival. A family is about love, trust, joy, safety, and support. When those things are gone a family has been destroyed, period. Living arrangements are inconsequential.
Chris, I'm really appalled by the fact that you took personal information that was shared with you and put it out here in such a manner. Your comments were not replying to the entry itself but to other information and things that were shared with you in trust, your comments should have been made to Tonia and Brian personally, not in a public forum with such a judgemental skew based on information that was not being publicly shared.
I was asked to post my opinions publicly against my better judgment.
I am not being judgmental I am Holding accountable there is a difference.
I will not allow my friend to make a post whose soul purpose is to justify her own feelings.
She wants to know if Brian is being abusive and everyone on this forum knows that is why she posted the question, so why obfuscate? The answer to her question is yes. The problem is she is also being abusive and her abuse is on par with Brian's.
Lastly, I didn’t post any personal information. I made vague references to moving out and a direct mention of the great shifted lands debate which I am sure everyone knew something about. I did not make any reference to the whole slew of other stuff. :)
Please, Do not turn the mirror onto me, it takes away from the focus of this discussion.
You haven't bothered to talk to me about this once in person. You have only heard from my husband who decided to get you involved in something that was SUPPOSED to be a learning experience.
I'm disgusted and offended that you think this was some kind of "poll" from whence I was going to point to justify any conclusion about anything in my personal life at all.
As far as I'm concerned, you can think what you want about me. You can villify me. You can assign motivations to me without even talking to me. I know and GOD KNOWS why I posted what I did and that my heart was in a place where I was trying to learn and CHECK MY ASSUMPTIONS and do some reality testing, as I've mentioned a few times already. This post was made in good faith and with no attempt to trick anyone into "taking sides."
The mere fact that you (or anyone else) will reduce this to a "who wins" discussion is also troubling. This situation and this discussion isn't about winning. Clearly nobody has "won" or will ever "win" in this. It's about trying to understand, grow and continue loving.
And you have the power to delete my posts and speak to me in person as well and have failed to do so. You could have deleted my post and called me and discussed with me why you feel certain ways and have choosen this medium.
My post also has valuable information about your question, but instead you are spending energy to some how fight me off and justify yourself.
I have talked to you privetly on several occasions. Next step is to come to you as a group. Granted this is not really the best way, but all that is available to me.
As I have already stated: 1) You are not a bad person. 2) By your very definition you are abusive. 3) Brain fails to live up to his definition. 4) Take from it and grow.
Both definitions fail because abuse is about a pattern not about any one act. If someone wrongs you and you retaliate it isn’t abuse. it might be vengeful, but it isn’t abuse. If a person breaks into your home and you shoot him/her you are not abusive. If a person repeatedly puts you down that would be abusive.
Personally I feel you should seek out how to grow past the pattern. Both of you.
------------The post I never posted from yesturday---------------
Sorry was called to work and didn’t finish.
You want a meta physical approach?
A person has only a few ways to derive what is moral and this discussion clearly is a moral one. Do you simply look inside yourself and come up with a code you decide to live by based on experience? Do you look to your friends and culture to tell you what is right and wrong? Do you turn to a higher power?
If you want to come up with your own code then fine, but stick with it for it is your only measuring stick. Frankly, unless you have a VERY loose code of ethics, I see it as impossible to ever live up to the measuring stick (self imposed or not). This way of thinking that morality is somehow based on what ever a person thinks is right and clearly that cannot work. I mean if I think it is right to kill people and rape woman, people would have an issue.
Then we have the whole cultural perspective. If your society thinks it is right then it must be right. Yet again you have the problem that morality is somehow fluid. This year black is evil, the next day white is evil. You end up with little accountability over time and space.
Higher power: The idea that there is some universal right, and we as humans do not always see the true path (or maybe we do depending on your view). At least here there is the idea that there is a correct answer but we have to seek it. It agrees with science for I have never heard of a scientist say "well what ever you feel controls gravity is the right answer." No, scientists seek the true answer.
I obviously adhere to the 3rd principle and specifically that higher power is Jesus. I go a step farther because I think God has spoken to people and has taken the time to tell us what is right and wrong. I think he has written his law upon our hearts. Would you do anything different for your own child?
The root question here is: Is Brian abusive….I will say most definitely he is at times. In fact it is pretty obvious that he can be verbally abusive. I don’t stress it because it is so obvious. The other question not being asked is: are you abusive? I would again say yes. Your ways are different but not any less abusive. What he may do in words I feel you do in deeds. You can argue you are depressed or what ever emotion you want to put in, but again that is not an excuse and you do not allow Brian those excuses to explain away his anger.
I don't recall ever saying that if you cause pain to someone else (intentional or unintentional) that you are automatically an abuser. And I fail to see how my actions have been "intentionally malicious or willfully negligent" until December 2005. As of December, my repsonses were getting ugly and I had very little positive to say or do towards Brian. However, Chris, it was YOU that insisted I stay for another month, despite the fact I wanted to end things and YOU who encouraged me to go to the marriage conference, which I did with an open heart and mind. It was also YOU to whom I expressed concerns about the limitations of what this conference might have, namely #1 how non-Christians (Brian) might respond to this religious conference and #2 whether or not the conference could teach tools to deal with serious transgressions, specifically including abuse.
And deleting your post would do nothing, Chris, since your damage had already been done, multiple people having already seen it and some even responding. I'm still trying to do some damage control here and not air out dirty laundry.
Thanks for the link. I went there and read it first before responding to you. Two very interesting things:
"Separation: reconcilliation the goal 1 Corinthians 7:11 This seems to be the best Biblical option for the abused Christian woman in view of the fact that it is wrong for her to remain in danger. During the separation the husband needs to seek help with his violence problem so that reconcilliation will be possible."
"Confrontation for the purpose of behavioral reform Leviticus 19:17, Luke 17:3, Galations 6:1 If the abuser refuses to seek help, he is essentially saying he wants a divorce, otherwise he would be willing to work toward. If he is a not Christian, let him go."
I don't know you. But I do know that more growth could have come from this discussion if you had not interjected specifics or your own suspicions into it. I had no idea that this stemmed from a direct conversation. Even if it did, I believe the intent was one of discovery, not of blame placing.
A slight matter of tact would have told you that the lack of personal or specific details would allay to the fact that Tonia was avoiding that on purpose. You should always take your lead from the original post. If you want to discuss it more personally then IM or Email them. The simple fact is that you have already taken the focus away from the discussion.
Brian,
If I see a person do something I consider morally apprehensible should I point it out to them? Furthermore, should that person cause harm upon another, a grievous harm lets say, should I not hurt that person in kind to ensure they will never hurt a person like that again? Isn’t it the problem in today’s society that people are too wishy washy and do not stand up for what they believe. Stand in front of the wave, and even more to the point, push it back? If a person cuts you off in traffic and then flips you off doesn’t that person deserve an ass beating? Likewise if a person cause’s harm to another in my own house, where I should have more control, is it not my responsibility to remove them from my home, set them straight, or even to the extreme find a way to cause him or her an equal amount of pain?
I ask you then, if Tonia does something I see as hurtful to my friend. Do I not have an obligation to hurt her in kind. Do what I can with my power to strike at her so she does not do it again? Should I not remove her from Final Haven? Bane her? If I see her as the one at fault shouldn’t I try and hurt her. Cause her pain so she will think twice about hurting another one of my friends? According to you I should show her grace, but that goes against the code. According to your definition it would not be abuse, and more to the point, it would be justified. Why does Tonia get a pass when others don’t? Is it because you are the only one wise enough to dish out such justice?
Tonia,
I read your definition that any time a person purposefully causes pain to another it is abuse. Should not a person sacrifice to the ends of the earth for the ones they love? Should not a person love so completely he or she continues suffering no matter the cost? If you do something that CLEARLY is causing your husband pain, say deciding to play a game, is that not abuse according to the definition? If your willful actions, even though you see it as an expression of personal freedom, cause another harm, is it not abuse? Who willfully chooses to do things that destroy a family? Is that not abuse?
You are both wrong. Worse, you are both hypocrites. It hurts me that you are doing this to each other. I am sad for you , that you cannot see past how right you both need to be.
-Chris
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If someone cuts me off in traffic, yeah I might yell in the comfort of my own car, or flip them off, but I end up feeling a little badly about it later. I don't know why they are doing it, perhaps they have a reason, perhaps they honestly didn't see me. There is no walking in another's shoes, but I try to live my life in that perspective.
On the other hand, I have often allowed myself to take on the guilt of mistakes made.
Missteps in life and philosophy are meant to happen. Without them we are stagnant and living in shells. I have decided to live my life without guilt. It really is just that easy. If I neglect to do something, I must have had a reason, whether it is beknownst to me or not. When I feel guilt, I know that I have made a wrong choice, and I learn to accept my choice. Guilt does not dwell in me. It's not productive. My choices are my own, and if I am willing to accept my outcomes, then I should feel no remorse for them.
Justice is not ours to dispense, but knowledge is. True justice comes in a person's soul. I'm not even talking about religion, but in the life they lead. If I hurt someone intentionally, I will begin to reap what I have sown. Justice comes in the way I view myself after making that choice. If I hurt someone unintentionally, I may or may not see what I have done. How can justice be dispensed when no fault is recognized? If I don't feel my choice is wrong, any justice dispensed on to me is simply vengance. To make just or right is to realize a wrong has been done.
Mistakes are when we recognize a choice we will not make again. Some times we cause pain to others because they cannot accept our choices. Again, I have to say our choices are our own.
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Two months ago you suggested that I shouldn't post things about Brian or my marriage in my LJ as it is destructive and counterintuitive to any rebuilding we might do. I heeded your advice. I even went back and retroactively made any disparaging posts about him non-public. I went to the marriage conference. I attempted to reconcile. I used all of the tools that I felt I had and tried to work with what we had left of our marriage. I cannot do anymore right now and so I've moved out and back in with my parents with the expectation of separating and trying to get myself to a place where I can be more clear about my decisions. My inquiry here was with sincere interest in learning and examining my own assumptions because I felt I needed to do some reality testing. I have no interest in addressing your quasi-personal post point by point, other than to say that I've made no decision about going back to Shifted Lands or the status of my marriage. The only decision I have made is that I'm too fucked up to keep spinning my wheels here and I'm sorry to hear that you feel that me moving out was a bad decision.
"Should not a person love so completely he or she continues suffering no matter the cost?"
The answer is no. It's especially a BIG no when there is a child involved and the lover is no longer the only one suffering. The lover's misery affects more than just the lover, it affects the child, too.
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Brian does not adhere to his own definition of abuse and neither do you since you also cause harm.
If you have not made up your mind about shifted lands then why allow it to become a point of contention in your marriage? Why put Brian through suffering about it?
On the other hand I completely discount that this was some how some sincere attempt by either of you to figure out the higher meta physics of the word "abuse".
Lets say that EVERYONE who read this post agreed with Brian's definition would that give you comfort? On the other hand if everyone agreed with you would that some how justify you?
As for it being just an emotionally charged post? I spent a day writing it and showed it to a couple people with 3 edits in the attempt to not come off emotional. I will say it is a very hard post direct to the issue at hand.
Chris
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If you feel that it is of to hurt 1 person (abuse) a person to protect another then yhe second definition needs a revision.
Also a little confused..are you saying you need to protect your child from Brian or are you saying thatbecause of your suffering you have been unable to be a good mother?
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This is from the original post. Since you decided to expose something I was trying to keep discreet, I'll admit that Brian wrote the first definition and I wrote the second. I was and still am learning about this issue. This was an honest attempt to grow and do some thinking.
If I'm an abuser or a bad person for separating from my husband at this time, I accept responsibility, but would not do anything different. I've never accused Brian of abusing Donovan. I have, however, been suffering so much (whether by my own design or the circumstances of this marriage) that I indeed have not been the best mother I could and should have been for my son. I accept responsibility for that, too, and am now trying to account for it. Things are so terribly embroiled and riddled with conflict now, it was not a safe and happy environment for Donovan. The decision for me to take Donovan with me was mutual and I've made every attempt to communicate with Brian on matters related to OUR son.
I'm sorry if you and Brian think I am a bad person. I'm sorry if anyone else feels the same. I'm not even denying that I may be making mistakes here, I'm just trying to gain some clarity and get to a point where I feel safe. Because the truth is I do not feel safe in many different ways.
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That post was equally geared toward Brian.
As Takki pointed out his philosophy is incorrect. I just think yours is as well. You are both wrong.
Sorry to expose you, but when you read both definitions, anyone who knows the two of you can tell who wrote each and what is going on.
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If I see a person do something I consider morally apprehensible should I point it out to them?
Sure. If you feel it will help the situation, make it known.
Furthermore, should that person cause harm upon another, a grievous harm lets say, should I not hurt that person in kind to ensure they will never hurt a person like that again?
No. Should someone cause grievous harm unto another person, than your efforts should be focused on preventing any further harm. Often times causing harm to the offender does NOT accomplish this and only encourages negative and destructive behavior.
Isn’t it the problem in today’s society that people are too wishy washy and do not stand up for what they believe. Stand in front of the wave, and even more to the point, push it back?
I agree completely. Push back against the wave, but understand that the measures you’re suggesting are aiding the wave, not opposing it.
If a person cuts you off in traffic and then flips you off doesn’t that person deserve an ass beating?
So, if a person commits an action that causes harm (in this case, emotional irritation), than escalating that harm in retribution is justified? By that example the now beaten-up driver is well within his rights to kill the guy he cut off. That is simply wrong.
Likewise if a person cause’s harm to another in my own house, where I should have more control, is it not my responsibility to remove them from my home, set them straight, or even to the extreme find a way to cause him or her an equal amount of pain?
It is your responsibility to defend and protect yourself, your friends, and your home. If causing pain is the only way in which that can be accomplished, so be it - but your responsibility and justification for causing harm end there. The causal factors contributing to a person’s abusive behavior are not going to be solved by you dishing out violent justice.
I ask you then, if Tonia does something I see as hurtful to my friend. Do I not have an obligation to hurt her in kind. Do what I can with my power to strike at her so she does not do it again? Should I not remove her from Final Haven? Bane her? If I see her as the one at fault shouldn’t I try and hurt her. Cause her pain so she will think twice about hurting another one of my friends?
No, no, no, no, no, and no. There is no obligation to cause pain. You may be obligated to protect and defend your friend, but the causation of pain should be the last option to do so.
According to you I should show her grace, but that goes against the code. According to your definition it would not be abuse, and more to the point, it would be justified. Why does Tonia get a pass when others don’t? Is it because you are the only one wise enough to dish out such justice?
I have no idea what you’re talking about here, so I’ll leave it alone.
Should not a person sacrifice to the ends of the earth for the ones they love?
Yes.
Should not a person love so completely he or she continues suffering no matter the cost?
No. Loving completely does not mean endless suffering. Love is reciprocal. If either person is suffering endlessly, something is wrong. No one who truly loved another could abide hurting them as such and would find a way to make the pain stop - even if it meant being apart.
If you do something that CLEARLY is causing your husband pain, say deciding to play a game, is that not abuse according to the definition? If your willful actions, even though you see it as an expression of personal freedom, cause another harm, is it not abuse?
If I demand that someone serve me hand and foot and they refuse to do so, a grossly warped definition could call their denial of my pleasure “abuse”. Similarly, a person who wants to control someone else could claim that denial of that control is “abusive”, but that doesn’t hold up. The control is the abusive act, resisting it is both right and necessary.
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Who willfully chooses to do things that destroy a family? Is that not abuse?
Why is it that the person who ends things is the one who gets blamed for destroying the family? The physical seperation of the people within the family does not equal its destruction, nor does the continued proximity of those same people equal a family's survival. A family is about love, trust, joy, safety, and support. When those things are gone a family has been destroyed, period. Living arrangements are inconsequential.
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I'm really appalled by the fact that you took personal information that was shared with you and put it out here in such a manner. Your comments were not replying to the entry itself but to other information and things that were shared with you in trust, your comments should have been made to Tonia and Brian personally, not in a public forum with such a judgemental skew based on information that was not being publicly shared.
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I am not being judgmental I am Holding accountable there is a difference.
I will not allow my friend to make a post whose soul purpose is to justify her own feelings.
She wants to know if Brian is being abusive and everyone on this forum knows that is why she posted the question, so why obfuscate? The answer to her question is yes. The problem is she is also being abusive and her abuse is on par with Brian's.
Lastly, I didn’t post any personal information. I made vague references to moving out and a direct mention of the great shifted lands debate which I am sure everyone knew something about. I did not make any reference to the whole slew of other stuff. :)
Please, Do not turn the mirror onto me, it takes away from the focus of this discussion.
-Chris
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You haven't bothered to talk to me about this once in person. You have only heard from my husband who decided to get you involved in something that was SUPPOSED to be a learning experience.
I'm disgusted and offended that you think this was some kind of "poll" from whence I was going to point to justify any conclusion about anything in my personal life at all.
As far as I'm concerned, you can think what you want about me. You can villify me. You can assign motivations to me without even talking to me. I know and GOD KNOWS why I posted what I did and that my heart was in a place where I was trying to learn and CHECK MY ASSUMPTIONS and do some reality testing, as I've mentioned a few times already. This post was made in good faith and with no attempt to trick anyone into "taking sides."
The mere fact that you (or anyone else) will reduce this to a "who wins" discussion is also troubling. This situation and this discussion isn't about winning. Clearly nobody has "won" or will ever "win" in this. It's about trying to understand, grow and continue loving.
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My post also has valuable information about your question, but instead you are spending energy to some how fight me off and justify yourself.
I have talked to you privetly on several occasions. Next step is to come to you as a group. Granted this is not really the best way, but all that is available to me.
As I have already stated:
1) You are not a bad person.
2) By your very definition you are abusive.
3) Brain fails to live up to his definition.
4) Take from it and grow.
Both definitions fail because abuse is about a pattern not about any one act. If someone wrongs you and you retaliate it isn’t abuse. it might be vengeful, but it isn’t abuse. If a person breaks into your home and you shoot him/her you are not abusive. If a person repeatedly puts you down that would be abusive.
Personally I feel you should seek out how to grow past the pattern. Both of you.
------------The post I never posted from yesturday---------------
Sorry was called to work and didn’t finish.
You want a meta physical approach?
A person has only a few ways to derive what is moral and this discussion clearly is a moral one. Do you simply look inside yourself and come up with a code you decide to live by based on experience? Do you look to your friends and culture to tell you what is right and wrong? Do you turn to a higher power?
If you want to come up with your own code then fine, but stick with it for it is your only measuring stick. Frankly, unless you have a VERY loose code of ethics, I see it as impossible to ever live up to the measuring stick (self imposed or not). This way of thinking that morality is somehow based on what ever a person thinks is right and clearly that cannot work. I mean if I think it is right to kill people and rape woman, people would have an issue.
Then we have the whole cultural perspective. If your society thinks it is right then it must be right. Yet again you have the problem that morality is somehow fluid. This year black is evil, the next day white is evil. You end up with little accountability over time and space.
Higher power: The idea that there is some universal right, and we as humans do not always see the true path (or maybe we do depending on your view). At least here there is the idea that there is a correct answer but we have to seek it. It agrees with science for I have never heard of a scientist say "well what ever you feel controls gravity is the right answer." No, scientists seek the true answer.
I obviously adhere to the 3rd principle and specifically that higher power is Jesus. I go a step farther because I think God has spoken to people and has taken the time to tell us what is right and wrong. I think he has written his law upon our hearts. Would you do anything different for your own child?
The root question here is: Is Brian abusive….I will say most definitely he is at times. In fact it is pretty obvious that he can be verbally abusive. I don’t stress it because it is so obvious. The other question not being asked is: are you abusive? I would again say yes. Your ways are different but not any less abusive. What he may do in words I feel you do in deeds. You can argue you are depressed or what ever emotion you want to put in, but again that is not an excuse and you do not allow Brian those excuses to explain away his anger.
So then what does God say about abuse?
http://members.tripod.com/~Battered_Helpmate/index-2.html
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And deleting your post would do nothing, Chris, since your damage had already been done, multiple people having already seen it and some even responding. I'm still trying to do some damage control here and not air out dirty laundry.
Thanks for the link. I went there and read it first before responding to you. Two very interesting things:
"Separation: reconcilliation the goal 1 Corinthians 7:11 This seems to be the best Biblical option for the abused Christian woman in view of the fact that it is wrong for her to remain in danger. During the separation the husband needs to seek help with his violence problem so that reconcilliation will be possible."
"Confrontation for the purpose of behavioral reform Leviticus 19:17, Luke 17:3, Galations 6:1 If the abuser refuses to seek help, he is essentially saying he wants a divorce, otherwise he would be willing to work toward. If he is a not Christian, let him go."
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Good Luck
-Chris
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A slight matter of tact would have told you that the lack of personal or specific details would allay to the fact that Tonia was avoiding that on purpose. You should always take your lead from the original post. If you want to discuss it more personally then IM or Email them. The simple fact is that you have already taken the focus away from the discussion.
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