(after his speech on anniversary of WWII beginning I don't expect anything nice)
I remember reading a transcript of that. ._. I think Putin should start reading Hetalia, it might help.
we discovered that image of Russia that we learned from our schools is totally like LotR's Mordor XD;
...Okay that's terrible so why am I laughing. Uhhh, yeah, pretty much! Even in America, we're usually taught that Russia is, you know, the Towering Nameless Faceless Monolith of Menace, Who Knows Neither Fear Nor Pity. It comes as a genuinely surprising thought to most Americans to think that, you know...Russians were afraid of the idea of nuclear war, too!
Which like, /facepalm, duh, but on the other hand, if you never think about it...you know?
Could you give me example of different views on historical events? It's very interesting!
Oh God, yeah! I think the most striking example I've come across is the Berlin Airlift. That's when (according to Western historians) the USSR blockaded West Berlin, preventing food or fuel from entering the city in the expectation that this would enable them to annex it. A Western Allied initiative led by the United States responded by organizing a massive airlift, carrying supplies over the blockade for almost a year, until the USSR capitulated.
In Russia, they've mostly never heard of this. And if they have, the facts are completely different, and it wasn't a blockade, and the whole thing about the airlift is barely mentioned, and etc.
What kinds of things are different between Poland and Russia?
Putin is a dangerous guy, I hope that soon Russia will finally have a better leader :/
umm, for example reason of Soviet invasion on 17 of September 1939 - in Polish version of course it was planned invasion, in Russian - protecting people of Western Ukraine and Belarus from Nazis and bad Poles. Actually whole vision of WWII and things that happened to some countries after that, Russians see themselfs as a good guys in that period, in Polish view they are exactly as bad as Nazis or even worse which is also a bit unfair after sacrifice of so many poor soldiers...
What is more understandable for me - vision of russification of all other nations in XIXth century seen as unification of Russian state.
There are many examples, you can imagine it after so many years of common history. It's not like Russian and Polish people hate eachother, but our history was neverending conflict - it's becouse for very long time we were only two independent and powerful Slavic states so we fought for everything between Warsaw and Moscow, what makes me feel bad for all nations that live between us XD;
Wow, really? Oh, God it makes me think about one Soviet propaganda movie that was aired in Polish tv about bad Americans who are trying to attack East Germany and Poland with invasion of Colorado potato beetle and it was serious XD
I remember reading a transcript of that. ._. I think Putin should start reading Hetalia, it might help. Wait-wait-I don't- what did he say? o.o
we're usually taught that Russia is, you know, the Towering Nameless Faceless Monolith of Menace, Who Knows Neither Fear Nor Pity
Russophobia is terrible like any anti-nation sentiment, but the casual russophobia nowadays brings more troubles to international relations than one could imagine. And you know what's really creeping me out? That just few years ago, everyone was, like "You used to be a monster and we suppose you still are. Even though you're not Soviet anymore. Er, but don't worry, you're not an enemy. So don't mind these missles in Europe, okay?". And Russia is, like "Sure, I get it. So, no matter what I do, I'm a monster. What else is new. All hope is false. *sulks* Well, you know what, you know what?! I'm just gonna do whatever I want, then!" *few years pass* Europe: "See? He's getting stronger! We've been telling you he's a monster!"
I couldn't find a transcript, but here's an article about his speech: Link
It was the...one where he was basically defending the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and...it was just... ._. Please don't do that, Mr. Putin. That is--that is not helpful. Especially not on the anniversary of the pact. Just...no.
(Of course it's easy to understand why he said it, and it was aimed at his domestic audience where I'm sure it was very well-received, but...please just go away, Putin. Please.)
Russophobia is terrible like any anti-nation sentiment, but the casual russophobia nowadays brings more troubles to international relations than one could imagine.
I think about this a lot, actually, and it...just...really infuriates me. Because just like Putin is not helping? Western world, you are not helping either! Anti-Russian rhetoric is just as pointless and damaging and blatant a political tool as the pro-Soviet/Stalinist rhetoric spread in Russia, and it makes me wish I could just...grab the whole West by the shoulders and just shake them because it's not like anybody's point of view here is difficult to understand! Maybe Russians would like to not be made to feel like pariahs and scapegoats for an arrogant, paranoid West! And maybe the West would like to see Russia accepting that it has done some capital-letters Terrible Things in the past century, instead of getting defensive and contrary and jingoistic about it! Just...arghh!
the benefits of international relationstikki2tokMarch 21 2010, 12:00:48 UTC
Please find the full text of the speech, not "analysis". Andrew Osborn quite popular with readers in Russia, and has a reputation for complete ignorant, perverts the facts for their own purposes. He not Russophile, not Russophobe, he simply wrote what will be read to the west. Russia really was the last country to sign a pact with Hitler. Pact has helped Russia to delay the war. It was an ugly solution, but necessary. What's wrong? sorry googlish.
Re: the benefits of international relationspyrrhiccomedyMarch 21 2010, 12:11:55 UTC
I have read the full text of the speech, when Putin first delivered it. And yes, I know about the West's policy of appeasement with Hitler. I am not trying to say that the USSR was the only Allied country which acted immorally in the years leading up to WW2. However, the terms of France and Great Britain's agreements with Nazi Germany, and the terms arrived at in the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, were...very different, let's just say, when you consider the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact's secret protocols.
But, please, this is not a discussion I am interested in having with anyone I don't know personally and who I don't know I can trust to keep a calm and level head. I think it's best if we just leave it at this. God knows there are plenty of places on the internet where one can argue about the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.
Re: the benefits of international relationstikki2tokMarch 21 2010, 12:25:50 UTC
I'm not trying to force you to change the view, this is not my business. But you've heard of the Curzon Line, of course? we have with Poland were rather complicated relationship. Poland was an ally of the USSR, was not even a friendly country. I do not see why Russia was obliged to act in the interests of Poland, but not their own. and sorry, do not belong here, of course.
Re: the benefits of international relationsradittzMarch 21 2010, 13:37:26 UTC
Main difference of peace treaties that other countries(including Poland) had with Germany that time, Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact had part about spliting whole central/eastern Europe with all independent countries there between them :/
Actually whole Putin's speech was even worse when you think about it - there was part about unfair degradation of Germany after WWI becouse of territorial loses(that means coming back of Poland and other states on Europe's map) as a true reason of WWII >>
but yay - you have an example of typical Polish-Russian historical discussion ;) ah, could I add you to my f-list? Alatherna told me a lot of great stuff about you :)
Re: the benefits of international relationstikki2tokMarch 21 2010, 15:23:47 UTC
I'll give you a link to the Polish-Russia discussion. there is a lot of Katyn, Volyn, destroyed temples and other things. There are about a modern relationship. Russian readers there a little, but it is completely reflects the current interest of Russia to Poland. http://bezwodkinierazbieriosz.salon24.pl/155997,odpowiedz-lestata-na-sowiecka-wizje-historii but in general, I find it strange how the Poles are building their future. In any case, good luck.
Re: the benefits of international relationsradittzMarch 21 2010, 16:04:28 UTC
First, important thing - I like Russians as a nation, I think that we - as a Slavic people - have a lot in common, I was learning about this language and culture in school for four years and I really respect it. I have my personal reasons to hate Soviet system for thing that happened to my own family, but it isn't connected with my feelings for Russia.
I checked that link from you and it makes me feel sad when I read what some people write :/ I hope that one day we'll finally have a simmiliar view on the past events.
"but in general, I find it strange how the Poles are building their future. In any case, good luck." <- well, in my opinion our economical and political situation now is really good now and our borders are finally safe for some time, so we are doing fine, thank you and good luck :) I'm curious whet we are doing wrong with our future, if you'd like to expand this topic, please send me a pm.
Re: the benefits of international relationstikki2tokMarch 21 2010, 16:38:05 UTC
sorry, I do not like to write, and do it often. I have no right to say that the Polish policy is not correct, it is your choice. but how you create a new Poland, beginning with the full zero, ridiculously reminiscent of our revolution. Well, you know, lustration, the creation of a new social memory, the prohibition of Soviet symbols .. In addition, I find it strange desire as much as possible to complicate relations with Russia-all still a big market and a close neighbor. but I hope with time everything will be fine)) мир) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59po-Vh8GdA&feature=related
Re: the benefits of international relationsradittzMarch 21 2010, 23:53:45 UTC
There was no reason to not stay polite :) But yeah, as you can see we have very different view on the past and it's often too serious topics to change our opinions to make diplomacy easier...
aww, you know my stuff? O_o; I love your fanarts and fanfics since late 2008 XD
Re: the benefits of international relationspyrrhiccomedyMarch 22 2010, 00:12:40 UTC
There was no reason to not stay polite
In my experience, this is not always a good enough reason for people to stay polite! Especially about something like the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, which is, um, controversial. I've mostly stayed out of the conversation because I try not to talk about such sensitive subjects with people I don't know well, but it has been very interesting to read. =D
aww, you know my stuff? O_o;
Oh my God, who doesn't? XD I saw the 'Phoenix' picture when you first put that up and I've been watching you ever since! (A little while after that I was like, "Holy shit, how does my picture of Liet have like ten thousand views?!" and realized it was just because you had fav'd it. XD) I cannot tell you how hard I squealed when you did that picture of Liechtenstein as a member of the Guild, because Last Exile is my favorite anime and oh my God Dio and fffff~
Yeah, I love your art! XD I had no idea you read my fanfics, I'm so flattered! =D
Re: the benefits of international relationsradittzMarch 22 2010, 01:59:16 UTC
ah, you know I'm just calm person. I have very clear opinion about most of events of 20th century but I know that there are some people that think different and even if I tried, I wont change their view. Even if it's sometimes makes me a bit angry it's good to read how they see events like that Pact.
"Last Exile is my favorite anime" <- Really? :D OMG, it's my very favourite too - for characters, story, artwork, music.... This is the only anime that made me collecting its author's artbooks(I love Murata) *_* I'm always so happy to meet other fans of it, it's such underrated series... and you know what, maybe it's funny but I'm became Lithuania/Poland fan not for example becouse of my nationality, but becouse they reminded me Dio and Lucciola >__>
I remember reading a transcript of that. ._. I think Putin should start reading Hetalia, it might help.
we discovered that image of Russia that we learned from our schools is totally like LotR's Mordor XD;
...Okay that's terrible so why am I laughing. Uhhh, yeah, pretty much! Even in America, we're usually taught that Russia is, you know, the Towering Nameless Faceless Monolith of Menace, Who Knows Neither Fear Nor Pity. It comes as a genuinely surprising thought to most Americans to think that, you know...Russians were afraid of the idea of nuclear war, too!
Which like, /facepalm, duh, but on the other hand, if you never think about it...you know?
Could you give me example of different views on historical events? It's very interesting!
Oh God, yeah! I think the most striking example I've come across is the Berlin Airlift. That's when (according to Western historians) the USSR blockaded West Berlin, preventing food or fuel from entering the city in the expectation that this would enable them to annex it. A Western Allied initiative led by the United States responded by organizing a massive airlift, carrying supplies over the blockade for almost a year, until the USSR capitulated.
In Russia, they've mostly never heard of this. And if they have, the facts are completely different, and it wasn't a blockade, and the whole thing about the airlift is barely mentioned, and etc.
What kinds of things are different between Poland and Russia?
Reply
Putin is a dangerous guy, I hope that soon Russia will finally have a better leader :/
umm, for example reason of Soviet invasion on 17 of September 1939 - in Polish version of course it was planned invasion, in Russian - protecting people of Western Ukraine and Belarus from Nazis and bad Poles. Actually whole vision of WWII and things that happened to some countries after that, Russians see themselfs as a good guys in that period, in Polish view they are exactly as bad as Nazis or even worse which is also a bit unfair after sacrifice of so many poor soldiers...
What is more understandable for me - vision of russification of all other nations in XIXth century seen as unification of Russian state.
There are many examples, you can imagine it after so many years of common history. It's not like Russian and Polish people hate eachother, but our history was neverending conflict - it's becouse for very long time we were only two independent and powerful Slavic states so we fought for everything between Warsaw and Moscow, what makes me feel bad for all nations that live between us XD;
Wow, really? Oh, God it makes me think about one Soviet propaganda movie that was aired in Polish tv about bad Americans who are trying to attack East Germany and Poland with invasion of Colorado potato beetle and it was serious XD
Reply
Oh, good lord XD;.
Reply
Wait-wait-I don't- what did he say? o.o
we're usually taught that Russia is, you know, the Towering Nameless Faceless Monolith of Menace, Who Knows Neither Fear Nor Pity
Russophobia is terrible like any anti-nation sentiment, but the casual russophobia nowadays brings more troubles to international relations than one could imagine. And you know what's really creeping me out? That just few years ago, everyone was, like "You used to be a monster and we suppose you still are. Even though you're not Soviet anymore. Er, but don't worry, you're not an enemy. So don't mind these missles in Europe, okay?". And Russia is, like "Sure, I get it. So, no matter what I do, I'm a monster. What else is new. All hope is false. *sulks* Well, you know what, you know what?! I'm just gonna do whatever I want, then!" *few years pass* Europe: "See? He's getting stronger! We've been telling you he's a monster!"
...
LE WHYYYYY
Reply
I couldn't find a transcript, but here's an article about his speech: Link
It was the...one where he was basically defending the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and...it was just... ._. Please don't do that, Mr. Putin. That is--that is not helpful. Especially not on the anniversary of the pact. Just...no.
(Of course it's easy to understand why he said it, and it was aimed at his domestic audience where I'm sure it was very well-received, but...please just go away, Putin. Please.)
Russophobia is terrible like any anti-nation sentiment, but the casual russophobia nowadays brings more troubles to international relations than one could imagine.
I think about this a lot, actually, and it...just...really infuriates me. Because just like Putin is not helping? Western world, you are not helping either! Anti-Russian rhetoric is just as pointless and damaging and blatant a political tool as the pro-Soviet/Stalinist rhetoric spread in Russia, and it makes me wish I could just...grab the whole West by the shoulders and just shake them because it's not like anybody's point of view here is difficult to understand! Maybe Russians would like to not be made to feel like pariahs and scapegoats for an arrogant, paranoid West! And maybe the West would like to see Russia accepting that it has done some capital-letters Terrible Things in the past century, instead of getting defensive and contrary and jingoistic about it! Just...arghh!
/rant off
Reply
Russia really was the last country to sign a pact with Hitler.
Pact has helped Russia to delay the war. It was an ugly solution, but necessary. What's wrong?
sorry googlish.
Reply
But, please, this is not a discussion I am interested in having with anyone I don't know personally and who I don't know I can trust to keep a calm and level head. I think it's best if we just leave it at this. God knows there are plenty of places on the internet where one can argue about the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.
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But you've heard of the Curzon Line, of course? we have with Poland were rather complicated relationship. Poland was an ally of the USSR, was not even a friendly country. I do not see why Russia was obliged to act in the interests of Poland, but not their own.
and sorry, do not belong here, of course.
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Actually whole Putin's speech was even worse when you think about it - there was part about unfair degradation of Germany after WWI becouse of territorial loses(that means coming back of Poland and other states on Europe's map) as a true reason of WWII >>
but yay - you have an example of typical Polish-Russian historical discussion ;)
ah, could I add you to my f-list? Alatherna told me a lot of great stuff about you :)
Reply
but in general, I find it strange how the Poles are building their future. In any case, good luck.
Reply
I checked that link from you and it makes me feel sad when I read what some people write :/ I hope that one day we'll finally have a simmiliar view on the past events.
"but in general, I find it strange how the Poles are building their future. In any case, good luck." <- well, in my opinion our economical and political situation now is really good now and our borders are finally safe for some time, so we are doing fine, thank you and good luck :)
I'm curious whet we are doing wrong with our future, if you'd like to expand this topic, please send me a pm.
Reply
but I hope with time everything will be fine))
мир) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59po-Vh8GdA&feature=related
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I'm just relieved that everybody stayed polite. XD I bet that's how Russian and Polish diplomats feel all the time.
ah, could I add you to my f-list? Alatherna told me a lot of great stuff about you :)
Oh, please do! I was going to ask you as well, I really love your artwork. =D
Reply
aww, you know my stuff? O_o; I love your fanarts and fanfics since late 2008 XD
Reply
In my experience, this is not always a good enough reason for people to stay polite! Especially about something like the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, which is, um, controversial. I've mostly stayed out of the conversation because I try not to talk about such sensitive subjects with people I don't know well, but it has been very interesting to read. =D
aww, you know my stuff? O_o;
Oh my God, who doesn't? XD I saw the 'Phoenix' picture when you first put that up and I've been watching you ever since! (A little while after that I was like, "Holy shit, how does my picture of Liet have like ten thousand views?!" and realized it was just because you had fav'd it. XD) I cannot tell you how hard I squealed when you did that picture of Liechtenstein as a member of the Guild, because Last Exile is my favorite anime and oh my God Dio and fffff~
Yeah, I love your art! XD I had no idea you read my fanfics, I'm so flattered! =D
Reply
"Last Exile is my favorite anime" <- Really? :D OMG, it's my very favourite too - for characters, story, artwork, music.... This is the only anime that made me collecting its author's artbooks(I love Murata) *_* I'm always so happy to meet other fans of it, it's such underrated series... and you know what, maybe it's funny but I'm became Lithuania/Poland fan not for example becouse of my nationality, but becouse they reminded me Dio and Lucciola >__>
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