This post really resonates with me. I find I'm interested in Dean again, after two years of despairing that the show really meant to go anywhere with that character. Horrified, mind you, but interested. As I was watching this latest ep, I found myself thinking about the aspects of Dean we're seeing come into sharp focus: his self-loathing (why I think he killed the douchebag husband) and his sadistic tendencies (why he didn't kill Cole; why he let Sam catch him)-two traits that I think are closely intertwined.
or even if he was saying all these things just so later on he can say he said them
Interesting way to look at it. I saw it as maybe a sort of flip side of that. After his "I hit a dog" experience and how shitty he felt about it for such a long time, I think he just can't live with making that choice again, even though it was far more rational and less dangerous than the choices he's making now. Once was all he had in him.
I find I'm interested in Dean again, after two years of despairing that the show really meant to go anywhere with that character. Horrified, mind you, but interested.
IT'S SO GREAT. I've been thinking/hoping that I was seeing the character on this trajectory all this time and it could flop any day now but I THINK IT'S REALLY HAPPENING?!?!
After his "I hit a dog" experience and how shitty he felt about it for such a long time, I think he just can't live with making that choice again, even though it was far more rational and less dangerous than the choices he's making now.
There's a difference between feeling that way and explicitly saying that he feels that way to a demon that's doing everything he can to twist the knife. You know? Sam knew good and well to keep things under his hat even before the Mark - like, it's not just that he felt shitty out of nowhere, Dean worked him long and hard to make him feel shitty about it - so, true or not, fair or otherwise, there's a reason he's choosing to communicate all of this now.
Dean worked him long and hard to make him feel shitty about it - so, true or not, fair or otherwise, there's a reason he's choosing to communicate all of this now.
I get what you're saying, but I'm not sure I see Sam that way. His mode is to go over the top in one direction or another-either drinking demon blood or playing house with Amelia (or Jess). I see this as swinging back the other way. He tried getting out (again) and it failed catastrophically (again) so he's back to all-or-nothing. JMO!
That's not what I'm saying, though? I'm not talking about the intensity of his private experience. I'm saying, Sam is far more likely than not to have an intense private experience and not say anything to Dean. The demon blood which he went a year without saying anything about, and that only happened after he got caught, is actually a really good example of what I'm saying. If Sam opens up, even if he is 100% sincere (which I do think he is), we can infer that he does have a good reason he is choosing to pipe up. IDK, maybe it's that he's really run down - like, as run down as he was doing the Trials, when he told Dean things he's been keeping to himself for decades - but that is still a reason which tells us something about his current experiences.
I also don't think it's fair to try and separate Sam's subjective emotional state from what we can objectively observe about his situation. We know that Dean did give him a really hard time about having the nerve to have a life after the Sucracorps siege. And I think we should be cautious
( ... )
It's so interesting to skim your meta even while I am not watching! :D *not resurrecting netflix account until I am out of this streaming deadzone that has problem with YOUTUBE videos - nvm other things*
That said though - I am Hufflepuff, and I have complicated feels for this evil!Hufflepuff... :3 *needs to finish watching eventually so I'll understand my feels better*
I think what Sam said to Dean in the bar was Sam playing the role he's had it drilled into him that he's supposed to play, completely devoted and unconcerned with his own self-preservation. And when Dean throws it back in his face, with the sarcastic put down of Sam's ~lifetime movie speech, that's not exactly out of pattern for their relationship, so it doesn't surprise me Sam takes it in stride.
'Network television humiliation porn' is a good moniker for it, but the over-the-top vitriol of demon Dean seems less nasty to me than some other Sam and Dean scenes. In terms of verbal cruelty, I wouldn't rate anything demon Dean has said as worse than regular Dean. He's a more obvious and less effective sadist, what with giving the game away in villainous monologues and all.
I think what Sam said to Dean in the bar was Sam playing the role he's had it drilled into him that he's supposed to play, completely devoted and unconcerned with his own self-preservation. And when Dean throws it back in his face, with the sarcastic put down of Sam's ~lifetime movie speech, that's not exactly out of pattern for their relationship, so it doesn't surprise me Sam takes it in stride.
POOR BBY. And yeah, I don't think those interactions go any differently, except Sam knows to have his guard up and not respond to Dean's prodding.
He's a more obvious and less effective sadist, what with giving the game away in villainous monologues and all.
YES. Dean has been so effective because he has everyone - himself included - convinced that he just ~cares too deeply to realize when he's being cruel. Now I'm surprised he hasn't grown out a 'stache strictly for twirling purposes.
This whole arc of the show is a gigantic meta-wishing well, like the one from way back in S4: be careful what you ask for, you just might get it, and everything that comes along with it.
ISN'T IT, THOUGH. It's almost frighteningly on-point. And fandom continues to find even more frightening ways with which to react to it.
And fandom continues to find even more frightening ways with which to react to it.
It's baffling. That said, I think it's a good sign that they're being forced more and more to make those blatant overreaches? Partly because it takes away from the power they have to define the conversation, but even more than that, it means that the show is giving them even less.
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or even if he was saying all these things just so later on he can say he said them
Interesting way to look at it. I saw it as maybe a sort of flip side of that. After his "I hit a dog" experience and how shitty he felt about it for such a long time, I think he just can't live with making that choice again, even though it was far more rational and less dangerous than the choices he's making now. Once was all he had in him.
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IT'S SO GREAT. I've been thinking/hoping that I was seeing the character on this trajectory all this time and it could flop any day now but I THINK IT'S REALLY HAPPENING?!?!
After his "I hit a dog" experience and how shitty he felt about it for such a long time, I think he just can't live with making that choice again, even though it was far more rational and less dangerous than the choices he's making now.
There's a difference between feeling that way and explicitly saying that he feels that way to a demon that's doing everything he can to twist the knife. You know? Sam knew good and well to keep things under his hat even before the Mark - like, it's not just that he felt shitty out of nowhere, Dean worked him long and hard to make him feel shitty about it - so, true or not, fair or otherwise, there's a reason he's choosing to communicate all of this now.
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I get what you're saying, but I'm not sure I see Sam that way. His mode is to go over the top in one direction or another-either drinking demon blood or playing house with Amelia (or Jess). I see this as swinging back the other way. He tried getting out (again) and it failed catastrophically (again) so he's back to all-or-nothing. JMO!
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I also don't think it's fair to try and separate Sam's subjective emotional state from what we can objectively observe about his situation. We know that Dean did give him a really hard time about having the nerve to have a life after the Sucracorps siege. And I think we should be cautious ( ... )
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That said though - I am Hufflepuff, and I have complicated feels for this evil!Hufflepuff... :3 *needs to finish watching eventually so I'll understand my feels better*
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*needs to finish watching eventually so I'll understand my feels better*
My feelings about Dean have not gotten any less complex, tbh. Still decisive, but complex.
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'Network television humiliation porn' is a good moniker for it, but the over-the-top vitriol of demon Dean seems less nasty to me than some other Sam and Dean scenes. In terms of verbal cruelty, I wouldn't rate anything demon Dean has said as worse than regular Dean. He's a more obvious and less effective sadist, what with giving the game away in villainous monologues and all.
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POOR BBY. And yeah, I don't think those interactions go any differently, except Sam knows to have his guard up and not respond to Dean's prodding.
He's a more obvious and less effective sadist, what with giving the game away in villainous monologues and all.
YES. Dean has been so effective because he has everyone - himself included - convinced that he just ~cares too deeply to realize when he's being cruel. Now I'm surprised he hasn't grown out a 'stache strictly for twirling purposes.
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ISN'T IT, THOUGH. It's almost frighteningly on-point. And fandom continues to find even more frightening ways with which to react to it.
THESE ARE WINCHESTER-APPLICABLE SKILLS, FRIEND.
ROFL
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It's baffling. That said, I think it's a good sign that they're being forced more and more to make those blatant overreaches? Partly because it takes away from the power they have to define the conversation, but even more than that, it means that the show is giving them even less.
It's almost frighteningly on-point.
( ... )
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