some general thoughts about fandoms, an inter-show comparison, and SPN 9x14 review

[pocochina]

I am going to ask this even though I’m like 98% on the answer, because I really want this to be the problem: do people really, sincerely, not understand how/why a viewer might enjoy a narrative as a whole without highly and equally admiring all of the main characters?* I mean, I think the “I don’t UNDERSTAND???!?! why anyone anywhere is having a

Comments

[percysowner]

Well I enjoy some stories about people I don't like, so I'm with you there. For me it has to do with them being interesting. Although I don't watch Scandal, I do watch Blacklist where the main character is a sociopathic serial killer. In real life I'd run screaming and even on the show I know he should be in prison and locked away. But James Spader is pulling out all the stops with his acting and Red Reddington is just fascinating on so many levels.

I don't understand the Dean stans. ash48 did a nice analysis on Dean's position in the story and noted that Dean makes the Monumental Statements of Love that convince the audience that Dean loves Sam so much more than Sam loves him even though the MSOLs are often controlling and even more often end up with Sam suffering horribly from the fallout. There is also a nice meta here about how in our culture we tend to see people who ACT as being heroic (especially if the immediate results appear to be positive regardless of the later consequences) while people who refrain from doing harm as

[percysowner]

Part 2

[pocochina]

Deanstans now have the view that Dean is a hero (which he is) and so he cannot do any wrong (which is nonsense).

I'd actually go further with those two things and put Dean pretty firmly in the antihero category? The "antihero" label has been stretched and warped to include way too many characters that are actually villain protagonists. Dean has done very good things. He has also done very bad things.

The one good thing I have found is a few journals where people just watch Supernatural like it's any other show. They are all appalled by Dean's actions and are fine with Sam not listening to Kevin. So I suspect the real majority of viewers are closer to what we are seeing than we know.

Yeah, that's what I'm hearing from people who watch with casual viewers. I feel like the issue is largely around Supernatural fandom tunnel vision, which is a big part of why I found the Scandal comparison so relevant.

[pocochina]

The "you are watching it wrong if you don't like everyone!!" claim is such a weird one to me in context of, you know, pretty much every television cultural touchstone of the 21st century? Breaking Bad? BSG? The Wire? The Sopranos? It's not that awful people are necessary to enjoyable drama, it's just that I find it difficult to believe that people are genuinely unaware that those two things can be compatible.

I saw the post about people who act and I think it kind of missed the mark in context of Supernatural specifically. Like, if we cared about people making the effort more than we care about results, then people would have a lot more admiration for Sam wrt S4. I think it's much more about self-presentation, about people who convincingly claim to be devil-may-care cowboys and don't actually drag us along with their honest deliberations. Not to put too fine a point on it, people are attracted to confidence, we like to identify with a very obvious, conventional kind of strength. IMO that's what's still attractive about Dean to

[cuddyclothes]

I was happy at the end of the episode when Dean turned to see Sam leaving. Yes, they are fictional characters, but if I allow myself the comparison, I've been married for a long, long time. It is possible to have a huge fallout and and love each other deeply and be realistically pissed about it for a long time. I'm not comparing the Winchesters to a married couple. But in each of their different ways, they are behaving like adults, particularly Sam. Somewhere in S5 Dean says to Sam, "you're a grown man." It's too bad he and/or the continuity department can't remember that.

[pocochina]

It is possible to have a huge fallout and and love each other deeply and be realistically pissed about it for a long time. I'm not comparing the Winchesters to a married couple. But in each of their different ways, they are behaving like adults, particularly Sam.

Exactly. I think that the resistance to this is tied really closely in with the romanticization of the ~codependence which is not really the meaning of codependence but w/e. Dean/someone in Dean's POV is really attached to "the relationship NEEDS to be exactly this way and nobody can have ANY choice about it" because they know that nobody would actually choose to live like this. Sam is showing some respect for himself and for Dean by essentially saying "we can do better."

Somewhere in S5 Dean says to Sam, "you're a grown man." It's too bad he and/or the continuity department can't remember that.

I actually find his failure at follow-through on that to be really realistic? I mean, I did the whole bit at length here, but just generally, it's really easy to *say* "I'm over X

[cuddyclothes]

Huh. Perhaps what we have here is maturity relapse. When you slip, you act like an asshole.

[ever_neutral]

Do you like 100% of people you meet IRL? Doubtful!

IKRRRRRR. This is why “I wouldn’t want to meet them irl therefore blah blah blah” does not compute to me. I DON’T EVEN LIKE HALF THE PEOPLE I HAVE TO INTERACT WITH IRL. WHAT IS THIS BIG DEAL ABOUT “REAL LIFE” PEOPLE, PRAY TELL.

[pocochina]

ahahaha, exactly.

[jensenrick]

OMG, I love that comparison with Scandal, (which I don't watch sorry) because it really does highlight the cognitive dissonance in this fandom.
It seems that Jensen Ackles is just too precious and beautiful for some people to ever ascribe a negative quality to him or Dean. I like to think of it as the Jensen Beiber effect.

[pocochina]

SCANDAL IS GR10. But yeah, as much of a downer as Scandal fandom can be, what with the calling female characters "whores" and telling actors to "drink bleach" for shipping the wrong ships every third tagged post, at least it's still above "is it really all that wrong to gaslight your partner and set him up to be sexually assaulted?" so. GLADIATOR 4 LYF.

I like to think of it as the Jensen Beiber effect.

ahahaha! I hope it's just that he's distractingly pretty, and not people actually admiring Dean's crap.