some general thoughts about fandoms, an inter-show comparison, and SPN 9x14 review

[pocochina]

I am going to ask this even though I’m like 98% on the answer, because I really want this to be the problem: do people really, sincerely, not understand how/why a viewer might enjoy a narrative as a whole without highly and equally admiring all of the main characters?* I mean, I think the “I don’t UNDERSTAND???!?! why anyone anywhere is having a

Comments

[percysowner]

Well I enjoy some stories about people I don't like, so I'm with you there. For me it has to do with them being interesting. Although I don't watch Scandal, I do watch Blacklist where the main character is a sociopathic serial killer. In real life I'd run screaming and even on the show I know he should be in prison and locked away. But James Spader is pulling out all the stops with his acting and Red Reddington is just fascinating on so many levels.

I don't understand the Dean stans. ash48 did a nice analysis on Dean's position in the story and noted that Dean makes the Monumental Statements of Love that convince the audience that Dean loves Sam so much more than Sam loves him even though the MSOLs are often controlling and even more often end up with Sam suffering horribly from the fallout. There is also a nice meta here about how in our culture we tend to see people who ACT as being heroic (especially if the immediate results appear to be positive regardless of the later consequences) while people who refrain from doing harm as being not terribly worthwhile. So when Dean sells his soul to bring Sam back from the dead, he is seen as a hero even though it turns out that this leaves Sam in emotional agony because Sam's alive because of Dean's actions. Whereas Sam accepting Dean is dead and not overturning the natural order is seen as weak and not being loving.

The fact is that the show has almost no one who is willing to say Sam is a good person, let alone that his actions were right. The few people who have offered understanding to Sam are demons, so as backup they hold little to no weight. with fandom.

The show has devoted almost obsessive attention to Dean's manpain. We saw his devastation over John's death even as he shut down Sam by forbidding him to talk about Sam's pain. We saw his "courage" when facing Hell and later his fear of it, even while he told Sam that he didn't care how Sam felt about the whole thing. We had endless scenes of how Sam working with Ruby hurt Dean with very few scenes of Sam actually keeping people alive. We were told by the angels that Dean is "The Righteous Man" and by God or at least his prophet that Sam was totally unsympathetic in season four. (I will spare you my rant on why I don't want Chuck to be God and my hatred of the Judeo/Christian centric tone the series moved to in season four) And then what Sam did completely failed and blew up the world. Season five again had Dean's pain, Dean's inability to forgive being not only front and center, but defended by everyone. Season six had Dean spouting how he had to have his Sam back while telling us Soulless!Sam was a murdering psychopath, even when his actions were far less clear on that. When season eight came around the complete Dean focus that had been presented out front was in full force and Sam wasn't given much voice to present his POV, especially with Dean playing the brother who martyred himself for Sam only to be abandoned and unloved by his selfish brother who wouldn't even be alive if it weren't for him and we will never mention that Sam would never have been in the Cage, or tortured or insane if Dean had just left well enough alone.

[percysowner]

Part 2

Deanstans now have the view that Dean is a hero (which he is) and so he cannot do any wrong (which is nonsense). In order to keep their view of Dean as the most loving brother in the world, they label Sam as the worst brother in the world. Many are quite honest. Some state that Sam became irredeemable in season four. Some say he could have redeemed himself if he hadn't been a whiny brat, but leaving Dean in Purgatory has pushed him to irredeemable. A few people who liked Sam are now all over his case for being mean to Dean in the aftermath of Gadreel. Sam can be mad, of course, they acknowledge that. He can only be mad in the way they want him to. He can't tell Dean they aren't brothers (because how can they not be brothers, it's biological). The fact that people can be biologically related and not consider themselves family is totally ignored. He can't tell Dean he wouldn't do the same thing because Sam should make the MSOL to prove to Dean he loves him. Then Dean will finally come around and feel secure enough to say sorry to Sam. The whole concept of the erotic, psychotic codependence that Zachariah described is being seen as good as opposed to really, really unhealthy.

I like Dean. He has done heroic things. He has also done horribly abusive things, not only to Sam but also to Lisa and Ben and Cas and Kevin. He just doesn't get called on them. And way too much of fandom refuses to get out of Dean's mindset and see Sam's.

The one good thing I have found is a few journals where people just watch Supernatural like it's any other show. They are all appalled by Dean's actions and are fine with Sam not listening to Kevin. So I suspect the real majority of viewers are closer to what we are seeing than we know.

[pocochina]

Deanstans now have the view that Dean is a hero (which he is) and so he cannot do any wrong (which is nonsense).

I'd actually go further with those two things and put Dean pretty firmly in the antihero category? The "antihero" label has been stretched and warped to include way too many characters that are actually villain protagonists. Dean has done very good things. He has also done very bad things.

The one good thing I have found is a few journals where people just watch Supernatural like it's any other show. They are all appalled by Dean's actions and are fine with Sam not listening to Kevin. So I suspect the real majority of viewers are closer to what we are seeing than we know.

Yeah, that's what I'm hearing from people who watch with casual viewers. I feel like the issue is largely around Supernatural fandom tunnel vision, which is a big part of why I found the Scandal comparison so relevant.

[pocochina]

The "you are watching it wrong if you don't like everyone!!" claim is such a weird one to me in context of, you know, pretty much every television cultural touchstone of the 21st century? Breaking Bad? BSG? The Wire? The Sopranos? It's not that awful people are necessary to enjoyable drama, it's just that I find it difficult to believe that people are genuinely unaware that those two things can be compatible.

I saw the post about people who act and I think it kind of missed the mark in context of Supernatural specifically. Like, if we cared about people making the effort more than we care about results, then people would have a lot more admiration for Sam wrt S4. I think it's much more about self-presentation, about people who convincingly claim to be devil-may-care cowboys and don't actually drag us along with their honest deliberations. Not to put too fine a point on it, people are attracted to confidence, we like to identify with a very obvious, conventional kind of strength. IMO that's what's still attractive about Dean to people, even more than prioritization of his POV (which in any event I think has been decreasing since Kripke's arc concluded).