GoT S3: the court of the North

[pocochina]

A few thoughts about episode 3x9, a LOT of thoughts about Catelyn, and a very few thoughts about Robb.

Comments

[bellonablack]

But, like most people, Cat finds it much easier to overrate her own importance - yes, the gods laid waste to a whole continent because of one passing thought in your head, lol -

LOL XD

This is dead true and also her relationship with Robb too....and Petyr's crush, yeah. It was...overestimated by A LOT. 0-0 LOL.

I love your thoughts and how you put it in societal context too, which is excellently observation, especially with the society having a little too lose as opposed to nothing.

ALSO: Cersei and Cat parallel!

(the only admission I didn't like was more that Cat in the books was a little more instructive of Ned in his decision to leave Winterfell, but. It's not quite a big one?)

[pocochina]

This is dead true and also her relationship with Robb too....and Petyr's crush, yeah. It was...overestimated by A LOT. 0-0 LOL.

Which like. Is awesome?! I feel like there's an expectation that Catelyn has to be ~meek and humble even among people who admire* her smarts. No, she's as self-absorbed as anyone, and more so than most, AND SO WHAT? It doesn't undermine any of the good things about her!

*and IMO tend to overrate, given the Jaime thing; as if she has to be flawless to be worthwhile.

CAT AND CERSEI <3

(the only admission I didn't like was more that Cat in the books was a little more instructive of Ned in his decision to leave Winterfell, but. It's not quite a big one?)

Yeah, agreed, I didn't love that either, but it's hardly a CRIME AGAINST WOMANHOOD, CRUEL AND MALICIOUS SILENCING, BLAH BLAH that people seem dead set on insisting show!Catelyn is.

[bellonablack]

It was awesome! I think self-absorption is one thing fandom keeps reacting maybe differently towards women and men on that issue. (now I like self-absorbed characters, as in characterization and being fascinating) --but I do think most characters and people do have that aspect, it just depends on how it is used or maybe they try to moderate it. But it is human and it's weird for it to be denied to a woman in fiction. :/

"
Yeah, agreed, I didn't love that either, but it's hardly a CRIME AGAINST WOMANHOOD, CRUEL AND MALICIOUS SILENCING, BLAH BLAH that people seem dead set on insisting show!Catelyn is."

Exactly. Not thrilling but even then, I don't know the reasons for it. Could have just been the tone of the scene itself, they may have filmed the original and decided against it for reasons. I have no clue. But yeah, it wasn't the very worst or anything in the long run for Cat.

[pocochina]

It was awesome! I think self-absorption is one thing fandom keeps reacting maybe differently towards women and men on that issue. (now I like self-absorbed characters, as in characterization and being fascinating) --but I do think most characters and people do have that aspect, it just depends on how it is used or maybe they try to moderate it. But it is human and it's weird for it to be denied to a woman in fiction. :/ YES. Because it's not a problem with Cat, it's a pattern you could probably find-and-replace from any number of fandoms and get the gist. like. Catelyn is medieval AU Elena Gilbert to me. A couple of decades more mature, obvs, but I think they have quite similar backgrounds, of being well-suited to and well-loved in their socially privileged environments; I think they have the same fierce attachment to Their People (and protectiveness of the framework for Their Status). And I think that resulting tunnel vision and pack-mentality moral code in female characters just does not compute for some segments of audiences. She's

[local_max]

My brain is not really full-throttle right now, but I'm really glad you pointed out that moment with Catelyn and Frey's wife, which seems kind of...not discussed much? Or, from what I can tell. Good thoughts otherwise also.

[pocochina]

ty! And yeah, the blood-for-blood murder of the girl doesn't fit people's picture of Catelyn, so it just gets ignored, when it's fascinating. Because yes, she's pretty far out of it with grief, I still feel for her in that moment, but that's seriously dark. Arya came by her murdery instincts honestly, clearly.

[hobbit_kate]

I agree about the Red Wedding. Everyone warned me about it, so I went ahead and spoilered myself (what with the end of episode 3 and all) and I was like "this is it?". I didn't quite see it coming, the scale of it, but I could've definitely guessed the characters involved weren't crucial in any way. Not like, say, Dany is. Seeing Robb's POV made that even more clear than the books did, I feel - he's basically a mini-Ned, and we all know where Ned ended up. Whoever will survive this series, they'll have to bring more to the table than Ned did.

The very last action of Catelyn, who would've been so easy to soften up and idealize, was the pointless murder of an unarmed girl.I liked that addition too (in hindsight, since I read the book after). Even though the difference between a fool and Walder Frey's wife isn't all that huge in this verse, it does pack more of a punch, in a way, as a showcase of just how expendable his family is to Frey

[pocochina]

Everyone warned me about it, so I went ahead and spoilered myself (what with the end of episode 3 and all) and I was like "this is it?"

I'd imagine it would've lost even more if the surprise factor was ruined.

Speaking of Robb's marriage, I was a bit miffed, once I read the book, how different it is on screen? Like someone decided to make his wife more awesome (TM), to be more PC or something. Pfish.

Yes! It's not even that I didn't like Talisa, because I did, though in a different way than Jeyne. And I think some of the adaptation worked, ie working her into the action as a nurse so we could see the relationship develop and get more insight into Robb. But all the "she's spunky! she's ~foreign! she's fearless!" felt like "Robb's choice of wife has to be ~justified" and I don't care for that attitude at all.

I did always see Cat's freeing of Jaime as more of a desperate act (though moreso in the books than in the series, perhaps) - in that she knows full well it's probably pointless, but she still has to try, has to do something,

[hobbit_kate]

I'd imagine it would've lost even more if the surprise factor was ruined.

I still totally read that spoiler for no reason - I would not have been *that* shocked to see these characters die at all. I wasn't that invested in Robb, tbh, and Cat had lost so much up at that point, her dying is almost a formality. Especially in the books, with Bran and Rickon in her thoughts every other minute, and Ned all the other minutes, she's just so *tired* of all the crap at that point.

And then, it turns out that *not* giving her that relief at all, possibly never, is so much more powerful, especially in the way it happens.

[ramasi]

I wouldn't know about the show, but I think in the books Robb lets Cat get away with freeing Jaime because he just did an incredibly stupid thing himself? This bit always came across as a genuine power struggle to me.

I love your analysis especially as pertaining to the way Cat relates to Littlefinger; I was always a bit confused by the extend of her trust here, and this makes sense of it perfectly.

[pocochina]

I think in the books Robb lets Cat get away with freeing Jaime because he just did an incredibly stupid thing himself? This bit always came across as a genuine power struggle to me.

Well, yeah, but Robb's stupid thing hardly constituted high treason, whereas (unless Catelyn doesn't really support Robb's claim) hers does. The fact that it's a power struggle at all shows that if anything, contrary to the "he doesn't ~appreciate her" bleating, King Robb holds Lady Catelyn in much higher regard than he should.

But yeah, Cat's thing about Petyr is so awesomely real.

[obsessive_a101]

LOL - I just read this (and other metas on the books/show) because I'm pretty sure I'll never get around to anything involving the actual series, but I like to know exactly why people cry and/or other such things. :)

Also, I've been told by basically everyone that if I DID, I would probably really, REALLY like Catelyn Stark. LOL (It's like my friend telling me that if I watch OUAT - I would totally love Mary Margaret. XD)

[pocochina]

I'm not sure whether or not you'd like GoT? In some ways it reminds me a lot of BSG - a cast of thousands, a pretty amoral survivor narrative, lots of varied philosophical viewpoints, some uncomfortable realpolitiking - but it's medieval setting, meaning that the violence can't be abstract in the way it has to be in space, so it can be tough to watch.

re: OUAT: You'll love Mary Margaret, watch it! #pusher