I STILL HAVE SO MUCH TO SAY THOUGH! I'm glad you commented, feling surrounded by the the "LALALLLA CAN'T HEAR YOU OVER MY FANON" insistence that up is down is...frustrating.
I've been pretty inundated with people saying "Dean didn't really mean it." or "We all know that Dean loves Sam more than life itself (which in NO WAY means he trusts Sam or lets Sam trust himself) why doesn't Sam see it?"
I mean, I see what's happening with a lot of people on some level? Because if someone who tends toward Dean's black-and-white thinking, which it seems like a lot of viewers do, doesn't buy Dean's rationalizations COMPLETELY, then it's very hard to avoid just how cruel he is to his brother. *I* can't like someone who's terrible, and I like Dean, so nothing Dean does can be terrible! Anti-hero doesn't always mean "lovable scamp." Sometimes it means "real goddamn sonofabitch."
Which I think ended up becoming a very interesting part of the perspective-play of the season, in pushing Dean to the point where even *he* cannot completely convince himself of his rationalizations. And part of that whole process is trying to create and enforce dependence and helplessness on Sam's part, because if Sam NEEDS him then he is SO IMPORTANT to Sam then that tips the scales against whatever sadistic crap he wants to pull.
I've heard the argument that Dean is an older brother and that NO older sibling in the world ever sees their younger siblings and capable and that EVERY older sibling tells the younger ones when they make mistakes.
These people make me think of Gabriel telling Lucifer that he shouldn't kill everyone because he didn't like it when Dad brought the new baby home. Since you're an only, have some inside info: "for some time in our lives I was substantially bigger than you so I get to bully and beat on you forever" is not actually how the big sibling deal works, unless someone is an asshole who will seize on whatever excuse to bully and beat on people anyway.
I don't think it's useful to evaluate the Winchesters by sibling rules most of the time? It strikes me as an adult intimate partnership, with most of the psychological perils you'd expect for someone who bails on college to be with a charming-but-dangerous older man. As loath as I am to give the Wincest-dom any credibility, DEAN IS NOT THE GOOD BROTHER. HE IS THE BAD BOYFRIEND.
Dean basically continues telling Sam that he trusts the guys who were planning mass murder more than he trusts Sam.
"Angels suck, except when they validate my opinion that YOU suck!"
The thing with Cas, to me, is that even just in what, four years? he has shown more responsiveness to Sam as he is (rather than Sam the Object of Whatever Emotion) than Dean has EVER shown. Someone who says/does clueless shit because they've been indoctrinated their whole life into a crummy belief system gets graded on a different curve than someone who does and says the same shit even though they've had every chance to become - and claims to actually be - loving and pro-freedom. "Intellectually dishonest and a betrayal of trust and wrong" is a lot harder for me than "just plain wrong." So I agree that Cas ultimately treats Sam in a similar way as Dean does, I just think Dean should do better than "only as much of an asshole as someone who's spent thousands and thousands of years being brainwashed into being an asshole."
I would not be in the least bit surprised if they bond now that Cas is human (where "human" means "screwed") and the power dynamics are different. Which doesn't say particularly flattering things about Cas, ofc, but still, refugee from eternal dictatorship. Dean tends to lash out at more vulnerable people; Sam can't stand up to Dean for himself but he can sometimes challenge Dean's behavior obliquely through relations with someone else.
I've been pretty inundated with people saying "Dean didn't really mean it." or "We all know that Dean loves Sam more than life itself (which in NO WAY means he trusts Sam or lets Sam trust himself) why doesn't Sam see it?"
I mean, I see what's happening with a lot of people on some level? Because if someone who tends toward Dean's black-and-white thinking, which it seems like a lot of viewers do, doesn't buy Dean's rationalizations COMPLETELY, then it's very hard to avoid just how cruel he is to his brother. *I* can't like someone who's terrible, and I like Dean, so nothing Dean does can be terrible! Anti-hero doesn't always mean "lovable scamp." Sometimes it means "real goddamn sonofabitch."
Which I think ended up becoming a very interesting part of the perspective-play of the season, in pushing Dean to the point where even *he* cannot completely convince himself of his rationalizations. And part of that whole process is trying to create and enforce dependence and helplessness on Sam's part, because if Sam NEEDS him then he is SO IMPORTANT to Sam then that tips the scales against whatever sadistic crap he wants to pull.
I've heard the argument that Dean is an older brother and that NO older sibling in the world ever sees their younger siblings and capable and that EVERY older sibling tells the younger ones when they make mistakes.
These people make me think of Gabriel telling Lucifer that he shouldn't kill everyone because he didn't like it when Dad brought the new baby home. Since you're an only, have some inside info: "for some time in our lives I was substantially bigger than you so I get to bully and beat on you forever" is not actually how the big sibling deal works, unless someone is an asshole who will seize on whatever excuse to bully and beat on people anyway.
I don't think it's useful to evaluate the Winchesters by sibling rules most of the time? It strikes me as an adult intimate partnership, with most of the psychological perils you'd expect for someone who bails on college to be with a charming-but-dangerous older man. As loath as I am to give the Wincest-dom any credibility, DEAN IS NOT THE GOOD BROTHER. HE IS THE BAD BOYFRIEND.
Dean basically continues telling Sam that he trusts the guys who were planning mass murder more than he trusts Sam.
"Angels suck, except when they validate my opinion that YOU suck!"
The thing with Cas, to me, is that even just in what, four years? he has shown more responsiveness to Sam as he is (rather than Sam the Object of Whatever Emotion) than Dean has EVER shown. Someone who says/does clueless shit because they've been indoctrinated their whole life into a crummy belief system gets graded on a different curve than someone who does and says the same shit even though they've had every chance to become - and claims to actually be - loving and pro-freedom. "Intellectually dishonest and a betrayal of trust and wrong" is a lot harder for me than "just plain wrong." So I agree that Cas ultimately treats Sam in a similar way as Dean does, I just think Dean should do better than "only as much of an asshole as someone who's spent thousands and thousands of years being brainwashed into being an asshole."
I would not be in the least bit surprised if they bond now that Cas is human (where "human" means "screwed") and the power dynamics are different. Which doesn't say particularly flattering things about Cas, ofc, but still, refugee from eternal dictatorship. Dean tends to lash out at more vulnerable people; Sam can't stand up to Dean for himself but he can sometimes challenge Dean's behavior obliquely through relations with someone else.
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