I'm glad you keep going on about the show and Sam. I've been pretty inundated with people saying "Dean didn't really mean it." or "We all know that Dean loves Sam more than life itself (which in NO WAY means he trusts Sam or lets Sam trust himself) why doesn't Sam see it?" or my big WTF "Sam really has always failed Dean. Why is Dean trying to make Sam feel better. He should let Sam finally admit he is a worthless brother who NEVER does ANYTHING for Dean? AND takes all the good stories while Dean takes care of Sam the worthless and cooks him dinner."
I'm pretty sure that none of these groups would even consider the idea that the reason Sam feels the way he does is because that is what Dean tells him repeatedly. Dean tells the priest in Clip Show that Sam can pull the trials off. He conveniently waits until Sam is OUT OF THE ROOM and beyond earshot to say this. He doesn't let Sam know that he thinks Sam can finish the trials. Heck he consistently reminds Sam that Sam needs Dean to carry him and then moves on to Sam needing a chaperone.
I've heard the argument that Dean is an older brother and that NO older sibling in the world ever sees their younger siblings and capable and that EVERY older sibling tells the younger ones when they make mistakes. I'm an only child, so I can't say. I'm also a mother and even though I watched my child being a child and making mistakes like any child does, now that she is grown up, I trust her judgement and her capability. And if I don't I still TELL her I trust her judgement and her capability because she is smart and capable and she gets to find out on her own what she can and can't do. If she flubs some things, well live and learn and I'm going to tell her that she'll succeed next time, not all the times she's made a mistake.
The whole Samhain episode pings me SO BAD. Not only is Samhain going to kill hundreds if he isn't stopped, Uriel and Castiel straight out tell Dean that in order to stop Samhain, they will wipe the town (with over 2000 people) off the face of the earth, if Dean doesn't come up with another to stop him. Then Sam tries to just stop Samhain without his powers and fails. He is faced with Samhain killing hundreds and Uriel and Cas killing thousands or using his powers. And after all that, Dean basically continues telling Sam that he trusts the guys who were planning mass murder more than he trusts Sam.
I'm less fond of Castiel than you are, although I've become more sympathetic the last couple of seasons. To me, Cas acts toward Sam much like Dean does. He tells Lucifer that he's Sam's friend, but never bothers to mention it to Sam. He confirmed that Soulless!Sam called him many times trying to figure out how he got back and Cas never responded, but he comes as soon as Dean calls. He DID break Sam's mind to distract Dean as opposed to taking on Dean directly and although he told Dean he was sorry, he never really said it to Sam. Or at least he didn't say it to Sam until Sam was so out of it in the Asylum in Born Again Identity, that Sam couldn't really process it. I would like to see Sam and Cas bond, but part of me says if it hasn't happened thus far, it probably won't. Cas reacts to Dean's opinions and influence more than Sam's. My gut feeling has been that Cas bonded with Dean when he pulled him from Hell and that like many people who are friends with someone, he realizes Sam is part of the package. I honestly don't know if he appreciates Sam as Sam or just as Dean's brother. Cas's interactions with Sam one on one have been few and far between. I may be misremembering, but the only one I recall from season 8 is when he picked Sam up from Amelia's. They were both people watching, Cas said something along the lines of how interesting people were, then he took Sam back to Dean and spoke with both of them or with only Dean. Certainly, Cas and Sam have much in common so they could become close, but as of now, I don't see it.
I STILL HAVE SO MUCH TO SAY THOUGH! I'm glad you commented, feling surrounded by the the "LALALLLA CAN'T HEAR YOU OVER MY FANON" insistence that up is down is...frustrating.
I've been pretty inundated with people saying "Dean didn't really mean it." or "We all know that Dean loves Sam more than life itself (which in NO WAY means he trusts Sam or lets Sam trust himself) why doesn't Sam see it?"
I mean, I see what's happening with a lot of people on some level? Because if someone who tends toward Dean's black-and-white thinking, which it seems like a lot of viewers do, doesn't buy Dean's rationalizations COMPLETELY, then it's very hard to avoid just how cruel he is to his brother. *I* can't like someone who's terrible, and I like Dean, so nothing Dean does can be terrible! Anti-hero doesn't always mean "lovable scamp." Sometimes it means "real goddamn sonofabitch."
Which I think ended up becoming a very interesting part of the perspective-play of the season, in pushing Dean to the point where even *he* cannot completely convince himself of his rationalizations. And part of that whole process is trying to create and enforce dependence and helplessness on Sam's part, because if Sam NEEDS him then he is SO IMPORTANT to Sam then that tips the scales against whatever sadistic crap he wants to pull.
I've heard the argument that Dean is an older brother and that NO older sibling in the world ever sees their younger siblings and capable and that EVERY older sibling tells the younger ones when they make mistakes.
These people make me think of Gabriel telling Lucifer that he shouldn't kill everyone because he didn't like it when Dad brought the new baby home. Since you're an only, have some inside info: "for some time in our lives I was substantially bigger than you so I get to bully and beat on you forever" is not actually how the big sibling deal works, unless someone is an asshole who will seize on whatever excuse to bully and beat on people anyway.
I don't think it's useful to evaluate the Winchesters by sibling rules most of the time? It strikes me as an adult intimate partnership, with most of the psychological perils you'd expect for someone who bails on college to be with a charming-but-dangerous older man. As loath as I am to give the Wincest-dom any credibility, DEAN IS NOT THE GOOD BROTHER. HE IS THE BAD BOYFRIEND.
Dean basically continues telling Sam that he trusts the guys who were planning mass murder more than he trusts Sam.
"Angels suck, except when they validate my opinion that YOU suck!"
The thing with Cas, to me, is that even just in what, four years? he has shown more responsiveness to Sam as he is (rather than Sam the Object of Whatever Emotion) than Dean has EVER shown. Someone who says/does clueless shit because they've been indoctrinated their whole life into a crummy belief system gets graded on a different curve than someone who does and says the same shit even though they've had every chance to become - and claims to actually be - loving and pro-freedom. "Intellectually dishonest and a betrayal of trust and wrong" is a lot harder for me than "just plain wrong." So I agree that Cas ultimately treats Sam in a similar way as Dean does, I just think Dean should do better than "only as much of an asshole as someone who's spent thousands and thousands of years being brainwashed into being an asshole."
I would not be in the least bit surprised if they bond now that Cas is human (where "human" means "screwed") and the power dynamics are different. Which doesn't say particularly flattering things about Cas, ofc, but still, refugee from eternal dictatorship. Dean tends to lash out at more vulnerable people; Sam can't stand up to Dean for himself but he can sometimes challenge Dean's behavior obliquely through relations with someone else.
I'm pretty sure that none of these groups would even consider the idea that the reason Sam feels the way he does is because that is what Dean tells him repeatedly. Dean tells the priest in Clip Show that Sam can pull the trials off. He conveniently waits until Sam is OUT OF THE ROOM and beyond earshot to say this. He doesn't let Sam know that he thinks Sam can finish the trials. Heck he consistently reminds Sam that Sam needs Dean to carry him and then moves on to Sam needing a chaperone.
I've heard the argument that Dean is an older brother and that NO older sibling in the world ever sees their younger siblings and capable and that EVERY older sibling tells the younger ones when they make mistakes. I'm an only child, so I can't say. I'm also a mother and even though I watched my child being a child and making mistakes like any child does, now that she is grown up, I trust her judgement and her capability. And if I don't I still TELL her I trust her judgement and her capability because she is smart and capable and she gets to find out on her own what she can and can't do. If she flubs some things, well live and learn and I'm going to tell her that she'll succeed next time, not all the times she's made a mistake.
The whole Samhain episode pings me SO BAD. Not only is Samhain going to kill hundreds if he isn't stopped, Uriel and Castiel straight out tell Dean that in order to stop Samhain, they will wipe the town (with over 2000 people) off the face of the earth, if Dean doesn't come up with another to stop him. Then Sam tries to just stop Samhain without his powers and fails. He is faced with Samhain killing hundreds and Uriel and Cas killing thousands or using his powers. And after all that, Dean basically continues telling Sam that he trusts the guys who were planning mass murder more than he trusts Sam.
I'm less fond of Castiel than you are, although I've become more sympathetic the last couple of seasons. To me, Cas acts toward Sam much like Dean does. He tells Lucifer that he's Sam's friend, but never bothers to mention it to Sam. He confirmed that Soulless!Sam called him many times trying to figure out how he got back and Cas never responded, but he comes as soon as Dean calls. He DID break Sam's mind to distract Dean as opposed to taking on Dean directly and although he told Dean he was sorry, he never really said it to Sam. Or at least he didn't say it to Sam until Sam was so out of it in the Asylum in Born Again Identity, that Sam couldn't really process it. I would like to see Sam and Cas bond, but part of me says if it hasn't happened thus far, it probably won't. Cas reacts to Dean's opinions and influence more than Sam's. My gut feeling has been that Cas bonded with Dean when he pulled him from Hell and that like many people who are friends with someone, he realizes Sam is part of the package. I honestly don't know if he appreciates Sam as Sam or just as Dean's brother. Cas's interactions with Sam one on one have been few and far between. I may be misremembering, but the only one I recall from season 8 is when he picked Sam up from Amelia's. They were both people watching, Cas said something along the lines of how interesting people were, then he took Sam back to Dean and spoke with both of them or with only Dean. Certainly, Cas and Sam have much in common so they could become close, but as of now, I don't see it.
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I've been pretty inundated with people saying "Dean didn't really mean it." or "We all know that Dean loves Sam more than life itself (which in NO WAY means he trusts Sam or lets Sam trust himself) why doesn't Sam see it?"
I mean, I see what's happening with a lot of people on some level? Because if someone who tends toward Dean's black-and-white thinking, which it seems like a lot of viewers do, doesn't buy Dean's rationalizations COMPLETELY, then it's very hard to avoid just how cruel he is to his brother. *I* can't like someone who's terrible, and I like Dean, so nothing Dean does can be terrible! Anti-hero doesn't always mean "lovable scamp." Sometimes it means "real goddamn sonofabitch."
Which I think ended up becoming a very interesting part of the perspective-play of the season, in pushing Dean to the point where even *he* cannot completely convince himself of his rationalizations. And part of that whole process is trying to create and enforce dependence and helplessness on Sam's part, because if Sam NEEDS him then he is SO IMPORTANT to Sam then that tips the scales against whatever sadistic crap he wants to pull.
I've heard the argument that Dean is an older brother and that NO older sibling in the world ever sees their younger siblings and capable and that EVERY older sibling tells the younger ones when they make mistakes.
These people make me think of Gabriel telling Lucifer that he shouldn't kill everyone because he didn't like it when Dad brought the new baby home. Since you're an only, have some inside info: "for some time in our lives I was substantially bigger than you so I get to bully and beat on you forever" is not actually how the big sibling deal works, unless someone is an asshole who will seize on whatever excuse to bully and beat on people anyway.
I don't think it's useful to evaluate the Winchesters by sibling rules most of the time? It strikes me as an adult intimate partnership, with most of the psychological perils you'd expect for someone who bails on college to be with a charming-but-dangerous older man. As loath as I am to give the Wincest-dom any credibility, DEAN IS NOT THE GOOD BROTHER. HE IS THE BAD BOYFRIEND.
Dean basically continues telling Sam that he trusts the guys who were planning mass murder more than he trusts Sam.
"Angels suck, except when they validate my opinion that YOU suck!"
The thing with Cas, to me, is that even just in what, four years? he has shown more responsiveness to Sam as he is (rather than Sam the Object of Whatever Emotion) than Dean has EVER shown. Someone who says/does clueless shit because they've been indoctrinated their whole life into a crummy belief system gets graded on a different curve than someone who does and says the same shit even though they've had every chance to become - and claims to actually be - loving and pro-freedom. "Intellectually dishonest and a betrayal of trust and wrong" is a lot harder for me than "just plain wrong." So I agree that Cas ultimately treats Sam in a similar way as Dean does, I just think Dean should do better than "only as much of an asshole as someone who's spent thousands and thousands of years being brainwashed into being an asshole."
I would not be in the least bit surprised if they bond now that Cas is human (where "human" means "screwed") and the power dynamics are different. Which doesn't say particularly flattering things about Cas, ofc, but still, refugee from eternal dictatorship. Dean tends to lash out at more vulnerable people; Sam can't stand up to Dean for himself but he can sometimes challenge Dean's behavior obliquely through relations with someone else.
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