BSG S3 thoughts, c&p'd from tumblr

[pocochina]

I've been meaning to write all this out for a while but I finally did so in response to this excellent post which I really recommend

Comments

[astreamofstars]

Yes to all of this. As always, you articulate my thoughts. I love Lee, I love him here, but there's a lot about how the trial goes down that bothers me a lot, and you've got a lot of it here. There's a difference between loving Lee, which I do, and agreeing with what he does here, which in a lot of ways, I don't.

I'll come back and be more coherent when sober, but All Of This.

[pocochina]

<3 Come back if and when you feel like it. Happy new year, dearest!

There's a difference between loving Lee, which I do, and agreeing with what he does here, which in a lot of ways, I don't.

ha, yeah. I love Lee best when I want to smack him, which is probably why S3 has such a place in my heart.

[nicole_anell]

I'm gonna copy-paste my own tumblr reblog because this is much easier!!

Ahhhh, interesting post. He’s absolutely playing dirty, I don’t deny that. As I indicated in my post, there’s something like a ‘game’ to the thing (side note: Romo is the Worst Influence) and while he’s not taking it lightly, he IS willing to go to a really unfair place in order to “win” because those are the moves he has. And you’re right that for all Lee’s talk about fairness and principles and junk, this is not the shining-est beacon of justice he could be upholding right here. At all.

I honestly never thought of it in terms of the rape victim analogy before, and I was discomfited at first by framing Roslin that way? I mean, I have mixed feelings about interpreting it in an inherently sexist way outside of context simply because it’s a male character talking to a female character. (Like in particular the “silly woman with a grudge” thing you mention - to me it’s TIGH who got hit much, much harder with the whole “you’re holding a completely irrational

[pocochina]

I honestly never thought of it in terms of the rape victim analogy before, and I was discomfited at first by framing Roslin that way? I mean, I have mixed feelings about interpreting it in an inherently sexist way outside of context simply because it’s a male character talking to a female character.

Yeah. I mean, I agree, it's...dicey. The cross-examination bothered me for reasons along these lines the first time around, even, but it took me a long time to articulate this reading and commit to it. But at the same time, I think the way that specific line of questioning gets deployed to attack her credibility is so loaded with this meta-narrative that is so insidious because it goes without saying so often.

Like in particular the “silly woman with a grudge” thing you mention - to me it’s TIGH who got hit much, much harder with the whole “you’re holding a completely irrational grudge and will lie about it” accusations in the earlier scene.Fair enough, but in context of the other stuff it takes on a weight that it doesn't have with Tigh

[nicole_anell]

Oh no, you're totally right about the Tigh vs. Roslin differences; when I said he got really torn apart for that I failed to mention that it was ENTIRELY ACCURATE in his case, if a bit uncomfortable (for me anyway) to see his fail-ness exploited. :p And just as the chamalla thing was more unscrupulous than pointing out that Saul was visibly trashed, the idea she's just got this stupidly personal hate-on for Baltar is... well you know my feelings but it's oversimplifying it, lol.

(P.S. The phrase "Six-boner" didn't leap out at me until the second time I read it. LMAO.)

[obsessive_a101]

HEEE! When I mentioned your meta for this scene, I meant the attached thoughts to the end of your Crossroads episodes reviews (or some addendum after), and basically YEEEESSSSSSSS!

♥ back

(Just got home from work - t'is why I'm so late.)

And I think one reason why the trial BUGS the heck out of me was that the entire set-up/framing (and most of the fans) has Lee representing "fairness" and "justice" (basically your third and second to last paragraphs explain this all so much better), and it completely undermines the fact that Laura in fact had no control over the actual results of the trial nor did she try to skew it in such a way that she had. She. Never. Did. She didn't set up a scam trial. It was a trial created in good faith, and did she have a stakes in it in wanting a certain verdict? YES, but she didn't hang Baltar out to dry, and I loved her for that. Her testimony was purely about her experience on New Caprica, and they were valid, the fact that the cross-examination by Lee was meant to read as invalidation/throw-out-the-

[pocochina]

it completely undermines the fact that Laura in fact had no control over the actual results of the trial nor did she try to skew it in such a way that she had. She. Never. Did. She didn't set up a scam trial. It was a trial created in good faith, and did she have a stakes in it in wanting a certain verdict? YES, but she didn't hang Baltar out to dry, and I loved her for that.QFT. There's this tendency to judge Laura against the "what would happen in a perfect world, as defined by what fandom thinks the very specific framework of modern American constitutional obligations entails" rather than "what did she do, what did she intend/attempt to do, what did she have the means to do, and what would have been in her best interests to do." And I obviously think that's a mistake. It's maybe pithier when I go on my thing about how any self-respecting autocrat would have iced Zarek on Kobol, but I think the trial is a much better measure of her dedication to doing the best she could by what was left of the Colonial government. She was the only

[nicole_anell]

Just want to jump in and add that I was reading some of these episodes' transcripts again because AHH MEMORIES and I wanted to remind myself of how certain things were phrased, and I feel pretty strongly that Lee's position was never "Baltar shouldn't even be on trial or charged with anything because of the pardon", but rather "Baltar should have a trial and here are my reasons to acquit him, which include the fact we let these other people off

[pocochina]

I mean, he doesn't want to skip over the trial any more than Roslin does, they're both *really fine* with the trial happening y'all, they just feel intensely that their side ought to win.

I love, too, how the show didn't even have Lee get to feeling that way until he had dug himself so deeply into it. Everything about his whole attitude until he gets the idea to move for a mistrial says "whatever, this dumb assembly is better than class, I guess." And then he's picked a side and commits himself to it. I do believe he's genuine by the end there? But I think he could easily have found his way to Justice Lee by way of "the legal system has to start somewhere, it might as well be Baltar." (Which doesn't invalidate the way he ends up thinking, because there are so many ways for them all to be right and wrong here.)

I think she... expected to win in a way that makes me curious whether she'd do things differently in hindsight if she had the chance, a la the joking with Zarek about how yeah she probably SHOULD'VE stolen that election. But

[anonymous]

Although I am very late discovering this I just wanted to say how good it is. Sometimes what is said about the trial drive me nuts starting with all this Lee is committed to justice whatever the cost notion. The narrative could not show more clearly the origins of his motivation in The Son also Rises. Romo articulates the point several times. In Crossroads I Dee implicitly articulates it when she tells him the point is that she does exactly understand. Then as you say Lee frakking proves the point out so his own mouth when he won't testify against his father. That is for me why he is so infuriating. All his high faluting mouthed principles turn out to be bullshit when it is going to cost him something he does not want to do. His daddy games means he will punish Laura and Bill for the dynamics of that threesome but when it is simply doing what the law requires of him in relation to his father rather than what his personal drama requires in his mind then all he is interested in is the claim of personal emotion and loyalty, the very

[pocochina]

Sometimes what is said about the trial drive me nuts starting with all this Lee is committed to justice whatever the cost notion. & I think in the text of the episodes there's more than enough to reject any notion of Lee playing a heroic role even if we confine that to the speech. It's the way Bamber plays it and the way Ryman directs that creates that effect.

YES. I think this is one of those places where the "show versus tell" problem of BSG starts to pull apart at the seams for me. I think there's a very compelling story here with Lee being *so* alive to this world he thinks should be, and simultaneously having almost no defenses against the world as it *is*. And so he needs to make these self-protective retreats into his theories and dreams into something idealistic and good because he really can't cope with decisions that hit too close to home emotionally; he needs to make a big show of positioning himself as being above reproach because if someone can criticize him it is OMG, THE END OF THE WORLD (AGAIN). I think that is one of

[anonymous]

And so he needs to make these self-protective retreats into his theories and dreams into something idealistic and good because he really can't cope with decisions that hit too close to home emotionally; he needs to make a big show of positioning himself as being above reproach because if someone can criticize him it is OMG, THE END OF THE WORLD (AGAIN). I think that is one of the most interesting parts of his character, and something that has taken him to some truly heartbreaking places. And that's good enough for me as a viewer; I don't think someone has to be a ~shining beacon of morality to have a sympathetic inner conflict

[pocochina]

Thank you for this thoughtful comment. YOU GET LEE. THANK YOU. I am about to pass out and so I can't give it the answer it deserves until tomorrow, but I wanted to unscreen and answer right away.

[pocochina]

The Lee-Gauis parallel is drawn very explicitly there. Lee can't look at the truth about what he did on New Caprica in regard to Dee and the fallout of that in being a derelict officer and Gaius can't either. They are both lying to themselves. Lee asks for Gaius not to be judged in good part because he won't judge himself either

I can't believe this never clicked for me!

I tried to stop the Admiral going back because Kara Thrace was on that planet and she left me and it hurt so much I would have let you all die because of it.

THIS IS SO HORRIBLY UNFLATTERING. I LOVE IT.

I will say, I like how Bill doing what he did on the doomed one-ship rescue mission FOR LOVE would also have let them all die so he could feel good about making a last stand. I don't think Lee's alone in his culpability, by any means.

Lee is selling himself so short on the Baltar side of it because I think he would have let the Cylons kill him before handing over the colonial government. He's not got Baltar's terror of dying and inability to get beyond self-

[anonymous]

ABSOLUTELY about Bill's motive for the New Caprica rescue. I love that scene for the parallel. It all comes out of that night on NC for both of them. I think Bill is more self-aware of what is going on, which is why he compromises the moment Laura's name is mentioned, but they are both turning the questions of life and death into what they can deal with in regard to these two women