in which p is a kid-hating bitch!
You all know what I love? An exhortion by a non-feminist for feminists to be nicer young ladies,* and just remember how much we love babies.
It’s really telling to me that this person specifically chose a feminist blog on which to lecture people about the appropriate feelings to have towards children. Because remember, this person has ( Read more... )
“ladies, I exhort you to do your duty, be nice and coo over babies”
Not even close to what is being said. At all.
Quote from the OP: much more helpful is to take a deep breath, send warm energy toward the mama and kid, give a sympathetic smile, and maybe even start talking with the kid to distract her from whatever has her upset at the moment.
I didn't say it was the sum total of the post, and I understand there was other stuff to it. But it is there. And, as folks in the comments pointed out and as I reiterated above, this is a thing that simply isn't possible for folks with some disabilities. Not everyone who took issue with it did so because they were not nice people; some of them just wanted to gently point out that they'd rather not have their PTSD triggered and that's why they sometimes don't react in the way mai'a thinks is helpful and could she maybe please not presume everyone is TAB. And, unfortunately, those concerns were not really addressed. Moving on!
"why would a feminist site want this not feminist posting there anyway, she's so awful!"
That is hands-down not what I said, it is in fact the opposite of what I said. Behold: I don’t question her credentials to be there at all, I have a lot of respect for the regular bloggers who made that decision, I just really question the choice to put this post in this forum and some of the ideas behind it. (Emphasis added.) I know it's less mean and inflammatory! Sorry to disappoint?
Next! That post by Cara is a very nice post with very good ideas with which I agree! Which is why I said this: It’s about the cultural policing of reproductive decisions, the under-valuing of child care labor, and the class disparities of child care opportunities. Look, that's an interesting conversation to have and everything, but I've made my position clear, and you're trying to distract me with a position I've already said I hold.
but also because she has said since that she didn't realize just how foreign these ideas would be to the audience
I'm honestly surprised to hear that. I stepped back from the thread and didn't comment because I didn't want to, you know, flame anyone or arbitrarily accuse them of illiteracy. But kids are an intensely personal decision, which women spend our entire lives being expected to justify one way or the other. How does that not result in strong feelings?
I understand that there are disparities between who gets to be mothers in our society, and this is a huge justice issue, I have actually been observed harping on that very issue. It matters, and I'm not saying it doesn't, and I did not say motherhood is unimportant, or not of particular importance for marginalized women. Just that I don't agree with the entire post.
You're also lumping this in with a much larger conversation about kids and power, which is an important and interesting topic, but not really on point. Nowhere did I say - not once in my life have I ever said, because as my last five therapists will tell you, I was a kid that got bullied into shut-up-and-be-a-teeny-grownup - that children should be not allowed in public, or terrorized into submission when they are; nowhere did I Bad Mommy anyone or whine about that one time I was in a restaurant and a kid got mashed peas all over me. Just that some of the blanket statements in the post about some adults without kids were unwarranted and not necessarily pro-woman.
Reply
But I also think there are perfectly legitimate reasons for all of these things (as outlined well by Sady), that have nothing to do with your reading comprehension, and much more to do with culturally entrenched ways of thinking about children reinforced by struggles in recognition of validity of being child free and feminist concerns about motherhood (coupled with the fact that for many women, feminists have not done shit for them, which is especially important for feminists to talk about/deal with). All things that mai'a (and the other post I linked by Arwyn) were trying to challenge and get us to think about differently.
And all of this… you reduced to:
these ladies need to be lectured and shamed into their rightful place, which is of course cheerfully with child or dutifully self-flagellating for failure to duly reproduce.
But online hostility towards children - children entirely too young to read a blog - is not actually hurting the children
Or support a feminist org, since they’re basically the only folks who give a shit about your problem.
No. You’re right. I bet people were more polite in restaurants, which is the more important thing.
deliberate reinforcement of traditional gender roles.
And then, which you again highlighted in your response to me: The issue, very clearly, isn’t about “cultural hostility towards children.” It’s about the cultural policing of reproductive decisions, the under-valuing of child care labor, and the class disparities of child care opportunities.
And this is why I say you’re missing the point. Not because I think your reading comprehension isn’t good enough but because I think this is the first time that our invisible culturally disseminated ideas about the privileged position of adults is being challenged for you. And so you are interpreting what mai’a is saying through the lens you’re most comfortable with: Feminism. But unfortunately, Feminism, in this instance, is failing you because of its utterly white and class privileged center. There is one common narrative about children and motherhood in Feminism and that is the one about forced motherhood and expectations of cis-women to reproduce and mother.
But that woman? Is not centered in mai’a’s post. That’s the disconnect I’m seeing when your interpretation of her words are spelled out in your post. And that’s especially central to the last quote, which you have highlighted for me, because, no, the issue in mai’a’s post really is about cultural hostility towards children. And she’s approaching that issue with a mami’s history and politics at the center, with the issues that have been faced by mami’s already presumed as base knowledge of the reader.
Disconnects like this are something that happens to all of us at some point because we are just human and we come from different understandings and backgrounds and base knowledges and feminisms. You can just dismiss this all as me flaming you, but that’s really, really not what I’m trying to do.
Sorry for the edit on already long posts but... ETA another link: http://shehasmyeyes.wordpress.com/2010/07/29/shake-the-shit-out-of-em/
Reply
That is fine, but that is not what you did. You put words - words that demonstrably not what I said into my mouth in order to have the argument you wanted to have. Which is pretty questionable, because I am guessing your own journal works, so you did not have to have it here. And I do dismiss heated arguments directed at me at things I deliberately did not say as flaming, because it is.
Not because I think your reading comprehension isn't good
Except, funny story. The information is there to be understood and I really don't feel like I could explain it better than mai'a and others already did That is exactly what you did say. So, I said what's convenient for you even if I didn't say it, you said what's convenient for you even if you didn't, I get how this game works!
I think this is the first time that our invisible culturally disseminated ideas about the privileged position of adults is being challenged for you
Oh, please, presume what I do and do not know; that will definitely turn me to your viewpoint. This was a post largely about parents' relationships other adults, in reaction to a similar post.
You know who has and frequently abuses power over kids? Their parents. Their teachers. Their doctors. Their priests. People who chose, either because of social pressure to look like Good People Who Like Kids (ahem) or deliberately in order to get some power and abuse it, and often both, to be in contact with kids. It's not strangers who are mean in restaurants and on the internet who physically, sexually, and emotionally abuse kids; in fact, I would wager a guess that feminists are more likely than the general population to recognize these issues for what they are and feel that the state should step in. Those "parent's rights" groups who are actually in favor of creating legislation and social structures which harm kids and teens are, you know, largely parents.
You know who doesn't abuse power over kids? People who don't like kids and therefore stay the hell away from them. Having some spaces where childfree people can be honest about their CF-ness, without being put on the defensive like they are in the rest of the world, is VERY IMPORTANT TO PROTECTING CHILDREN. Acknowledging that mothering is not something women are hardwired to do - something women should NOT be pressured and cajoled and sometimes forced into doing - is desperately important to moving towards a culture that respects and supports motherhood as a deliberate and valuable act.
That is not a conversation at odds with the idea that women should not be discouraged from motherhood either. Deeply personal, free will, should not be coerced, should be respected and supported. By all means, that's an important thing to discuss on its own merits, but it's not an argument against CF-ers and some of their sometime rudeness.
that woman? Is not centered in mai’a’s post
Um, yes, she is, at least in part - this is a post directed at a "you" who thinks sie - who the fuck am I kidding, she - has a right to childfree spaces; who right now is sending negative energy and making sour faces and who should learn to do the opposite; at "some feminists" who "could use a refresher course...that kids are people." Directing a communication at someone is a way of drawing them into the center of your conversation. I am not saying mai'a or anyone else should be expected to center an experience more privileged than their own, simply that this post does so in part.
Reply
(The comment has been removed)
*approx. value; some snark applies
Reply
You are erasing numerous PWD who posted in that thread in this quote; I saw a lot of P/FWD's totally disagreeing with what you're saying here. Yes, quite a few also said that children are difficult for them to be around. Yes, that is important and needs to be acknowledged and worked with in our public spaces, the needs of children and the needs of PWD are both things that are not valued in our culture and that needs to change.
But there was no united front on this issue, many of the PWD who posted were completely pissed off that other PWD's were trying to speak for them and made a variety of points about their own way of finding a middle ground that included self care along with the personhood of children as well as that children were rather low on the list of things that set them off.
And I would also point out that if our concern is how to make public space safe both for children and for PWD that the best possible thing TAB people can do would be to do exactly what mai'a advised that you found so offensive: distract the child and give them something besides whatever is making them upset to think about, or at least just *not turning around and glaring at the parent and child*, which was specifically what mai’a was speaking to in that quote. I have no idea how that became her demanding women “do your duty and coo over babies!”
Reply
Reply
Also, your "some" was in the context of dividing off people who "were not nice people" from people who "don't want to have their ptsd triggered". Apparently what you meant was "some people with ptsd..." but that's not how it read. I misunderstood your meaning, my mistake.
Reply
And, well, I highly doubt there was a one-to-one debate on every particular disability. I'm not going to set out (another) list of examples, but it's not really relevant anyway. The point is that PWD should not be expected to do even more work than we already do on our conditions in order to be less of a burden for other people. mai'a did not consider this in her post, you did not consider this in your comment, and in doing so you and she (I am sure inadvertently) lumped people with particular presentations of particular disabilities which prevent them from acting the way she'd like them to in with people who need a reminder that kids are people. That is erasure.
Reply
Leave a comment