Oh, I totes agree. I only mention Jack and Ianto specifically because that is the kind of fic that I read.
I think the reason that the loyalty strikes me so hard post-S2 is because the team has been so pared down. It's like a wake-up call to the three of them, this realization that they've somewhat coalesced as a family, something that I think is missing prior to Jack's departure--Jack leaving is really what makes them band together. And I think that, too, is more of the same. The old "you don't know what you've got til it's gone." In S1, this is a job and they're all kind of grumpy with each other and thrown together more by circumstance than anything else. I don't think they're really friends yet. By the end of S2, they ARE friends, but I don't think they realize how things have shifted until Owen dies the first time. I mean, I know we don't really KNOW Suzie and she's not supposed to be part of the actual show, but we don't get to see them mourn Suzie the way I imagine Gwen and Ianto and Jack mourned Tosh and Owen.
I have totally lost track of this conversation in my head! Um, anyway, I would agree with your comment, except that I would posit that the loyalty and togetherness within the team doesn't really start until S2.
Also, today I shook my fist at Barrowman really hard in the stock room and everyone stopped what they were doing to look at me. I blame Barrowman. BARROWMAN!! ::shakes fist::
I'm pretty much never going to use any other icon with you.mcwonthelotteryJanuary 15 2010, 02:34:10 UTC
Keeping track of conversations is for losers!
I kind of think you hit on something when you say that it starts when Owen dies the first time (my favorite think about any wikipedia article about Owen is the heading "First Death"), and I think I might fix on that. Because that is sort of the wake up call of THIS SHIT JUST GOT REAL FOR A SECOND and then they all sort of collectively let out their breaths and look around because, well, Owen is still kind of there for the time being.
One of the things that I don't like about the way this loyalty shifts after S2 is that it's two people who are in love with Jack and Jack. And that skews the relationships enough for me to make my heart NOT swell with happy feel good lovey dovey thoughts of squee. And (because it always come back to Owen for me) Owen was the perfect counterbalance to that because he was always the first one to NOT trust Jack. ...this is probably why I like him. He's someone who is as angry at Jack as I am. Owen at least has reasons.
i would use only this icon for everything forever if I didn't think my whole flist would defriend mepocky_slashJanuary 15 2010, 02:49:35 UTC
Yeah, I mean, they really do live a pretty charmed existence up until Owen dies, and then when he immediately comes back, like you said, they sort of relax because it was a false alarm.
The main part of what makes post-S2 work for me is the relationship (possibly entirely in my head) between Ianto and Gwen. And, in a weird sort of circular way, it was the need for this relationship between them in post-S2 that made me consider the relationship in the first place. Does that make any sense? I looked at it and thought, "There's no way that team could work if they didn't all love each other to the tips of their toes," so I kind of went back and thought, "Well, maybe Ianto and Gwen do. There's enough evidence for me to make a bullshitty case for it, at least." Then that grew into a real case and, you know, a love of that relationship over all others.
Because I think the two of them sort of temper each other. Neither of them let their feelings for Jack outweigh their sense (I mean, as much as anyone on TW has sense) because they have each other to think about, too. They're not always great about thinking about anyone but themselves, but they muddle through.
And I love the idea that all three of them love each other that much. I don't think it's something we would have ever gotten out of the five person team, though I do think the five of them loved each other, because the old loyalties and the jealousies and the rivalries and everything else would have complicated things. Which is good--it presents a totally different dynamic that makes for an entirely different story. But I can't see all five of them making a decision to defect in order to protect each other without a lot of deliberation and back and forth. With the trio, I think it would be instantaneous.
That presents its own problems (Which--haha, plug!--I'm planning to explore in the third and final Club Wales story). While I think they'd put the fate of the world above their affection for each other, I don't think much else would make the cut. It would be an almost symbiotic relationship, and if they ever hoped to expand the team, it would cause problems. Plus, it would probably be hard to look past their love for each other to see things clearly.
Anyway, wow, clearly this is something that I like to talk about. WHO KNEW?
Re: i would use only this icon for everything forever if I didn't think my whole flist would defrienmcwonthelotteryJanuary 15 2010, 03:01:35 UTC
Know what's great about us, Kait? That you can look at my understanding/interpretation of Owen and go, "Wtfffff" and I can look at your understanding/interpretation of Gwen & Ianto and go "WTF?" and yet, you and I? ARE STILL TOTALLY AWESOME. And you should, like, move to Boston or something so we can talk way too much about some crap show.
Every time you say Club Wales, I imagine Gwen and Ianto in a little wooden club house in the Hub, and Jack knocks on the door, and Gwen opens the door just a bit, and goes, "Password?" and Jack is like "Uhhhh." and Ianto goes, "THEN YOU HAVE TO GO AWAY."
Literally. Every time. I haven't read your fic, Kait. This might actually happen.
Re: i would use only this icon for everything forever if I didn't think my whole flist would defrienpocky_slashJanuary 15 2010, 03:07:33 UTC
I KNOW, RIGHT? Which is why I don't understand why people in fandom can be so cruel to each other. I mean, clearly we can sit here having totally opposite opinions and yet still be civil and acknowledge each other's points and at the end be like, "Oh, okay, I see why you think that, but I don't agree" and not once did we call each other cocksuckers. Like, not even one time!
Ha, actually, Owen is the one who comes up with the name "Club Wales" while being a dick about the fact that Gwen and Ianto are friends. Then he says it to Jack and Jack becomes OBSESSED with it because people he likes are clearly not allowed to like each other unless he is involved.
So, yes, actually, it's a metaphoric club house, but most of the time, Jack is fumbling with the password and being turned away XD
Anyway, clearly Barrowman distracted you from changing your icon. That BASTARD.
Re: i would use only this icon for everything forever if I didn't think my whole flist would defrienmcwonthelotteryJanuary 15 2010, 03:15:31 UTC
I don't understand fandom fights at all. Like, hey, Kait? I don't read your TW fic! Because I don't really care about Jack or Ianto's relationship with Jack (for the most part) or Gwen. And you very likely won't read my fic if I ever finish it! AND WE CAN STILL BE FRIENDS! It must be MAGIC or something!
Ahahahah, man, I love when Owen is a dick.
If anyone is the cocksucker here, it's Barrowman. ...and given present company, I think he would be inclined to agree.
I think the reason that the loyalty strikes me so hard post-S2 is because the team has been so pared down. It's like a wake-up call to the three of them, this realization that they've somewhat coalesced as a family, something that I think is missing prior to Jack's departure--Jack leaving is really what makes them band together. And I think that, too, is more of the same. The old "you don't know what you've got til it's gone." In S1, this is a job and they're all kind of grumpy with each other and thrown together more by circumstance than anything else. I don't think they're really friends yet. By the end of S2, they ARE friends, but I don't think they realize how things have shifted until Owen dies the first time. I mean, I know we don't really KNOW Suzie and she's not supposed to be part of the actual show, but we don't get to see them mourn Suzie the way I imagine Gwen and Ianto and Jack mourned Tosh and Owen.
I have totally lost track of this conversation in my head! Um, anyway, I would agree with your comment, except that I would posit that the loyalty and togetherness within the team doesn't really start until S2.
Also, today I shook my fist at Barrowman really hard in the stock room and everyone stopped what they were doing to look at me. I blame Barrowman. BARROWMAN!! ::shakes fist::
Reply
I kind of think you hit on something when you say that it starts when Owen dies the first time (my favorite think about any wikipedia article about Owen is the heading "First Death"), and I think I might fix on that. Because that is sort of the wake up call of THIS SHIT JUST GOT REAL FOR A SECOND and then they all sort of collectively let out their breaths and look around because, well, Owen is still kind of there for the time being.
One of the things that I don't like about the way this loyalty shifts after S2 is that it's two people who are in love with Jack and Jack. And that skews the relationships enough for me to make my heart NOT swell with happy feel good lovey dovey thoughts of squee. And (because it always come back to Owen for me) Owen was the perfect counterbalance to that because he was always the first one to NOT trust Jack. ...this is probably why I like him. He's someone who is as angry at Jack as I am. Owen at least has reasons.
Reply
The main part of what makes post-S2 work for me is the relationship (possibly entirely in my head) between Ianto and Gwen. And, in a weird sort of circular way, it was the need for this relationship between them in post-S2 that made me consider the relationship in the first place. Does that make any sense? I looked at it and thought, "There's no way that team could work if they didn't all love each other to the tips of their toes," so I kind of went back and thought, "Well, maybe Ianto and Gwen do. There's enough evidence for me to make a bullshitty case for it, at least." Then that grew into a real case and, you know, a love of that relationship over all others.
Because I think the two of them sort of temper each other. Neither of them let their feelings for Jack outweigh their sense (I mean, as much as anyone on TW has sense) because they have each other to think about, too. They're not always great about thinking about anyone but themselves, but they muddle through.
And I love the idea that all three of them love each other that much. I don't think it's something we would have ever gotten out of the five person team, though I do think the five of them loved each other, because the old loyalties and the jealousies and the rivalries and everything else would have complicated things. Which is good--it presents a totally different dynamic that makes for an entirely different story. But I can't see all five of them making a decision to defect in order to protect each other without a lot of deliberation and back and forth. With the trio, I think it would be instantaneous.
That presents its own problems (Which--haha, plug!--I'm planning to explore in the third and final Club Wales story). While I think they'd put the fate of the world above their affection for each other, I don't think much else would make the cut. It would be an almost symbiotic relationship, and if they ever hoped to expand the team, it would cause problems. Plus, it would probably be hard to look past their love for each other to see things clearly.
Anyway, wow, clearly this is something that I like to talk about. WHO KNEW?
Reply
Every time you say Club Wales, I imagine Gwen and Ianto in a little wooden club house in the Hub, and Jack knocks on the door, and Gwen opens the door just a bit, and goes, "Password?" and Jack is like "Uhhhh." and Ianto goes, "THEN YOU HAVE TO GO AWAY."
Literally. Every time. I haven't read your fic, Kait. This might actually happen.
Reply
BARROWMAN!!!
Reply
Ha, actually, Owen is the one who comes up with the name "Club Wales" while being a dick about the fact that Gwen and Ianto are friends. Then he says it to Jack and Jack becomes OBSESSED with it because people he likes are clearly not allowed to like each other unless he is involved.
So, yes, actually, it's a metaphoric club house, but most of the time, Jack is fumbling with the password and being turned away XD
Anyway, clearly Barrowman distracted you from changing your icon. That BASTARD.
Reply
Ahahahah, man, I love when Owen is a dick.
If anyone is the cocksucker here, it's Barrowman. ...and given present company, I think he would be inclined to agree.
Reply
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