Grumble, grumble, grumble
I haven't read my flist lately. I need to get back in touch. However, I have gotten very tired of what passes as civilized discourse online. I keep reading comments from people stating that as long as someone isn't literally calling you an idiot than it is polite discourse. This is ridiculous. Do people really believe that refraining from shouted insults is the only requirement for polite discourse?
I see people declaring someone's facts are wrong (liar?) and then never apologizing when it turns out that the facts were indeed correct. I see people declaring “you must be kidding?” when others express an innocuous personally held opinion. I see people patronizing others by arrogantly pointing out simple concepts that a 4 year old would know. I see people lecturing others on their own narrow political perspective as though it were the revealed truth that the listener hasn't yet received. This is not discourse people. True discourse involves listening on both sides. It does not involve patronizing lectures. It also requires that BOTH SIDES must be willing to reevaluate their own cherished beliefs. Hint people: If you aren't willing to listen, consider and even change your ideas, then you are PREACHING, not discussing.
Do people really believe this is polite, or even constructive discourse? I get so tired of being online as people are constantly pronouncing others wrong...when in fact they are not wrong, they just see things a different way.
On a tangential rant: I recently read someone say they can't discuss politics with liberals because liberals view politics as religion, not as ideas. Whoever said this has a muddleheaded bunch of liberal friends. Liberal concepts are solidly grounded in such ideas as a social contract, social responsibility, fairness, stability and human rights (specifically above corporate rights). For the most part, they are also based on logic, good sense & science. A solidly liberal concept is the idea that desperate people do desperate things. It is a true benefit to all of society to have safety nets for the least among us, This is not a religious value, it is a practical one. How can an economy be based on 'consumers' who don't have a living wage, or who have to spend most of their income on healthcare or food? It is also impractical to create a workforce out of an uneducated populace. Therefore it is for the good of society as a whole as a well as the individual citizens that healthcare, living wages & decent educations are accessible to everyone. Just as it creates enemies to torture people, it also creates enemies to ghetto-ize populations. I do believe that in an equal society all citizens should have equal access to decent education. That is an ethical believe. However, as a practicality it is a very bad idea to create an uneducated populace, This is especially true in a democracy. If everyone has the right to vote, it is to everyone's best advantage that all voters can think critically & rationally. It isn't just an ethical choice, it is a practical one.
A liberal concept is that 'the commons' belong to everyone in a society and everyone benefits from them and everyone needs to do his or her part to support them. Environmentalism is often blasted as a special interest, but we all breath air & we all drink water, just to name a few environmental necessities. This is not a religious belief, it is an ecological concept based on science. Everyday real special interests are destroying more and more of the countries 'commons' for private gain. A few profit, and everyone pays the price. But the commons are more than just physical needs. There is a financial commons. A few profited & everyone paid the price. There are some who believe that our resources are infinite. That is a religious belief with no science I have ever seen to back it up. For some reason Americans have come to believe that our water is a dumping ground. That we aren't entitled to fresh water from the sky or ground. Our environment is polluted by private groups who profit from the polluting, yet all of society has to pay the price. A liberal concept is that those who do the polluting take on at least SOME of the cost of their polluting. Instead, special interest groups fight, fight, fight to continue making their personal profit while poisoning everyone's resources. From an ethical perspective that is wrong. But, from a practical perspective, why do we let them get away with it?
It is a liberal concept that anyone living in a peaceful, democratic country is not living and working alone in the wilderness. In a peaceful, democratic country all people & businesses benefit from the peace & the democracy and they are not independent 'maverick's' making it on their own. They are in fact members of that society and benefit from the environment that has been created by everyone who is a member of that society. They benefit from the infrastructure (built & paid for by all of us), the military stability (built & paid for by all of us), the natural environment, the people, the history, etc. They owe society, society doesn't owe them. Again, this isn't a belief, it is a practical reality. Each of us, as citizens has rights, but we also have responsibilities. It is wrong for corporations to have rights without responsibilities. Our government was built for citizens not corporations.
It is a liberal concept that a human citizen should have more rights and freedom than a corporation or a chemical. Yet so often now corporations & chemicals are innocent until proven guilty. That is wrong. Personal rights should supersede those of chemicals & corporations, neither of which are citizens. Neither of which should have the rights of citizens. I shouldn't have to prove that that chemical is doing damage to me. If you are dumping it into my environment, I should have the right to say stop. That chemical doesn't have its own rights. And my neighbor doesn't have the right to dump their trash in my yard. Why does he have the right to dump it into my river? Or for that matter into my food?
Enough Grumbling? I am just tired of the right wing media, the modern idea that facts are conveniently denied, the online manners of blasting others opinions. Maybe I am just too old for this...
While I am grumbling, I really want to complain about these 'polite' Nashville men who stand in my way and then insist that I go first. Fuck you. Get out of my way and we will all get there quicker.
I see people declaring someone's facts are wrong (liar?) and then never apologizing when it turns out that the facts were indeed correct. I see people declaring “you must be kidding?” when others express an innocuous personally held opinion. I see people patronizing others by arrogantly pointing out simple concepts that a 4 year old would know. I see people lecturing others on their own narrow political perspective as though it were the revealed truth that the listener hasn't yet received. This is not discourse people. True discourse involves listening on both sides. It does not involve patronizing lectures. It also requires that BOTH SIDES must be willing to reevaluate their own cherished beliefs. Hint people: If you aren't willing to listen, consider and even change your ideas, then you are PREACHING, not discussing.
Do people really believe this is polite, or even constructive discourse? I get so tired of being online as people are constantly pronouncing others wrong...when in fact they are not wrong, they just see things a different way.
On a tangential rant: I recently read someone say they can't discuss politics with liberals because liberals view politics as religion, not as ideas. Whoever said this has a muddleheaded bunch of liberal friends. Liberal concepts are solidly grounded in such ideas as a social contract, social responsibility, fairness, stability and human rights (specifically above corporate rights). For the most part, they are also based on logic, good sense & science. A solidly liberal concept is the idea that desperate people do desperate things. It is a true benefit to all of society to have safety nets for the least among us, This is not a religious value, it is a practical one. How can an economy be based on 'consumers' who don't have a living wage, or who have to spend most of their income on healthcare or food? It is also impractical to create a workforce out of an uneducated populace. Therefore it is for the good of society as a whole as a well as the individual citizens that healthcare, living wages & decent educations are accessible to everyone. Just as it creates enemies to torture people, it also creates enemies to ghetto-ize populations. I do believe that in an equal society all citizens should have equal access to decent education. That is an ethical believe. However, as a practicality it is a very bad idea to create an uneducated populace, This is especially true in a democracy. If everyone has the right to vote, it is to everyone's best advantage that all voters can think critically & rationally. It isn't just an ethical choice, it is a practical one.
A liberal concept is that 'the commons' belong to everyone in a society and everyone benefits from them and everyone needs to do his or her part to support them. Environmentalism is often blasted as a special interest, but we all breath air & we all drink water, just to name a few environmental necessities. This is not a religious belief, it is an ecological concept based on science. Everyday real special interests are destroying more and more of the countries 'commons' for private gain. A few profit, and everyone pays the price. But the commons are more than just physical needs. There is a financial commons. A few profited & everyone paid the price. There are some who believe that our resources are infinite. That is a religious belief with no science I have ever seen to back it up. For some reason Americans have come to believe that our water is a dumping ground. That we aren't entitled to fresh water from the sky or ground. Our environment is polluted by private groups who profit from the polluting, yet all of society has to pay the price. A liberal concept is that those who do the polluting take on at least SOME of the cost of their polluting. Instead, special interest groups fight, fight, fight to continue making their personal profit while poisoning everyone's resources. From an ethical perspective that is wrong. But, from a practical perspective, why do we let them get away with it?
It is a liberal concept that anyone living in a peaceful, democratic country is not living and working alone in the wilderness. In a peaceful, democratic country all people & businesses benefit from the peace & the democracy and they are not independent 'maverick's' making it on their own. They are in fact members of that society and benefit from the environment that has been created by everyone who is a member of that society. They benefit from the infrastructure (built & paid for by all of us), the military stability (built & paid for by all of us), the natural environment, the people, the history, etc. They owe society, society doesn't owe them. Again, this isn't a belief, it is a practical reality. Each of us, as citizens has rights, but we also have responsibilities. It is wrong for corporations to have rights without responsibilities. Our government was built for citizens not corporations.
It is a liberal concept that a human citizen should have more rights and freedom than a corporation or a chemical. Yet so often now corporations & chemicals are innocent until proven guilty. That is wrong. Personal rights should supersede those of chemicals & corporations, neither of which are citizens. Neither of which should have the rights of citizens. I shouldn't have to prove that that chemical is doing damage to me. If you are dumping it into my environment, I should have the right to say stop. That chemical doesn't have its own rights. And my neighbor doesn't have the right to dump their trash in my yard. Why does he have the right to dump it into my river? Or for that matter into my food?
Enough Grumbling? I am just tired of the right wing media, the modern idea that facts are conveniently denied, the online manners of blasting others opinions. Maybe I am just too old for this...
While I am grumbling, I really want to complain about these 'polite' Nashville men who stand in my way and then insist that I go first. Fuck you. Get out of my way and we will all get there quicker.