Planting seeds of doubt in the Mormon mind
Over the last few weeks I have been reading the "Journal of Joseph Smith" along with the Book of Mormon for a documentary I am working on for my website. I myself am an Atheist but I wanted to compile some information that people can use when Mormon missionaries come to your homes.(if you don't slam the door in their faces first)
Previous to starting the project I challenged one of my Mormon friends to sit down and go through the process of research with me. I promised him that I wouldn't insult his beliefs or use any Atheist bias in my research. We would only use LDS approved documents and critical thinking. I had only 1 stipulation for him, that only until we finished analyzing everything from start to finish would he be allowed to ask his Church elders questions or refer to Mormon apologetics. He agreed and we began about a week and a half ago.
I recently came upon the conclusion that most people don't give their own beliefs much critical thought and when I insult them right off the bat they usually go on the defensive, thus preventing them from opening their minds. I wanted to try a different approach this time. So I asked him to think of one critical question to ask after each section we had read because I figured I would be the one doing most of the questioning. I wanted him to try to answer his own questions without using faith as a conclusion.
Well after the second night of reading we came across a section that instantly I knew would be perfect for him to question. The following is an excerpt from the Journal of Joseph Smith, I am not going to change the spelling to keep it accurate. Please note I have been able to transcribe the conversation between my friend and I via audio recorder.
" November 13th 1833 Nothing of note transpired from the 4th of Nov[m]ber u[n]til this day. In the morning at 4 oh clock I was awoke by Brother Davis knocking at /my/ door saying "Brother Joseph come git /up/ and see the signs in the heavens." I arrose and beheld to my great Joy the stars fall from heaven. Yea they fell like hail stones. A litteral fullfillment of the word of God as recorded in the holy scriptures and a sure sign that the coming of Christ is clost [close] at hand. Oh how marvellous are they works Oh Lord and I thank thee for thy
me[r]cy u/n/to me thy servent. Oh Lord save me in they kingdom for Christ sake. Amen
November 19th AD 1833/ From the 13th u[n]till this date nothing of note has transpired since the great sign in the heavins.
After reading this I asked him
Me: So how do you interpret this?
Ben: Well it seems like this was a sign from God to Joseph Smith, perhaps another revelation to him and his followers. Im not sure exactly what part of the Scriptures he meant but it sounds like something out of Isaiah or Revelation.
Me: So because Joseph Smith was a prophet he knew this was a clear sign from God, he knew it was a "Literal fullfillment of the Scriptures right?
Ben: Yes of course, God would not give a sign such as this to a "False Prophet" so clearly God was saying Joseph Smith was doing the right thing.
Me: Do you think he could have meant Revelation 6:13(I know the Bible very well) ? " And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind."
Ben: Yeah it's possible I mean Joseph Smith knew the prophesies in the Bible very well, he was also a prophet and had direct contact with the Lord, so it's very possible.
Me: But did Jesus really come back as told in Revelation? Was this the end of times?
Ben: Well no, not exactly but it could have just been the opening of the seals or something, I really don't understand the book of Revelation all that well.
Me: So could he have misinterpreted this? Is there any way to find out if it could have been something else?
Ben: Well....I doubt he misinterpreted it, I doubt there is anyway to find out if it was something else because Joseph Smith is dead so we can't really ask him.
Me: Is there anything in this passage we could use to reaserch further?
Ben: I guess we could google the date to see but I don't know how much we could find that far back
So I told him to Google it and tell me what he came up with
The first site was a Christian site which we both ignored but the following sites are what he came up with
http://starryskies.com/articles/dln/11-98/leonids.html
http://leonid.arc.nasa.gov/history.html
http://science.nasa.gov/newhome/headlines/ast22jun99_2.htm
Me: So what really occured here?
Ben: It was a leonid meteor shower
Me: Have any other meteor showers occured since then?
Ben: Yes, all the time
Me: Based on what you read did people from different parts of the world misinterpret this also as a sign from God?
Ben: They thought the apocalypse was upon them...some even were repenting.
Me: Do you think that people living this time period would have know the difference between a meteor shower and a sign from god?
Ben: Well No I don't think they would, how could they really I mean we know more now about this kind of stuff..like in our time period......But Joseph Smith being a prophet of God should have known....I mean maybe not what a meteor shower was, but shouldn't he have know that this wasn't really a sign from god? I mean I have seen shooting stars before, they happen all the time. They are just rock particles passing through our atmosphere. According to that website November is a prime time of year for them.
Me: So if you saw a meteor shower or even a shooting star would you think it was a sign from God or a natural event?
Ben: Well...I know it's a natural event within Gods universe but....I guess you could say it was a sign too but that really doesn't make sense....cause these are common things.
Me: So was Joseph Smith wrong in how he interpreted it?
Ben: Well ....I uh guess so...and he could have asked God for clarification considering how much interaction he had
Me: So was Smith wrong?
Wow......I never really thought about but yea, I mean a real prophet who was chosen by god should be more aware of things.....than your average person...at least you would think so....and he never got any kind of warning ahead of time about this. Hmm...this is interesting
Now obviously this isn't what pushed him over the edge but this was what I call the "turning point" or where I planted a seed of doubt in his mind. From there It was almost like I could see him breaking down more and more each day. The whole point of writing this out was to encourage people to approach it in more of a one on one study, using critical questioning rather than insulting. It has worked for me! :)
Previous to starting the project I challenged one of my Mormon friends to sit down and go through the process of research with me. I promised him that I wouldn't insult his beliefs or use any Atheist bias in my research. We would only use LDS approved documents and critical thinking. I had only 1 stipulation for him, that only until we finished analyzing everything from start to finish would he be allowed to ask his Church elders questions or refer to Mormon apologetics. He agreed and we began about a week and a half ago.
I recently came upon the conclusion that most people don't give their own beliefs much critical thought and when I insult them right off the bat they usually go on the defensive, thus preventing them from opening their minds. I wanted to try a different approach this time. So I asked him to think of one critical question to ask after each section we had read because I figured I would be the one doing most of the questioning. I wanted him to try to answer his own questions without using faith as a conclusion.
Well after the second night of reading we came across a section that instantly I knew would be perfect for him to question. The following is an excerpt from the Journal of Joseph Smith, I am not going to change the spelling to keep it accurate. Please note I have been able to transcribe the conversation between my friend and I via audio recorder.
" November 13th 1833 Nothing of note transpired from the 4th of Nov[m]ber u[n]til this day. In the morning at 4 oh clock I was awoke by Brother Davis knocking at /my/ door saying "Brother Joseph come git /up/ and see the signs in the heavens." I arrose and beheld to my great Joy the stars fall from heaven. Yea they fell like hail stones. A litteral fullfillment of the word of God as recorded in the holy scriptures and a sure sign that the coming of Christ is clost [close] at hand. Oh how marvellous are they works Oh Lord and I thank thee for thy
me[r]cy u/n/to me thy servent. Oh Lord save me in they kingdom for Christ sake. Amen
November 19th AD 1833/ From the 13th u[n]till this date nothing of note has transpired since the great sign in the heavins.
After reading this I asked him
Me: So how do you interpret this?
Ben: Well it seems like this was a sign from God to Joseph Smith, perhaps another revelation to him and his followers. Im not sure exactly what part of the Scriptures he meant but it sounds like something out of Isaiah or Revelation.
Me: So because Joseph Smith was a prophet he knew this was a clear sign from God, he knew it was a "Literal fullfillment of the Scriptures right?
Ben: Yes of course, God would not give a sign such as this to a "False Prophet" so clearly God was saying Joseph Smith was doing the right thing.
Me: Do you think he could have meant Revelation 6:13(I know the Bible very well) ? " And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind."
Ben: Yeah it's possible I mean Joseph Smith knew the prophesies in the Bible very well, he was also a prophet and had direct contact with the Lord, so it's very possible.
Me: But did Jesus really come back as told in Revelation? Was this the end of times?
Ben: Well no, not exactly but it could have just been the opening of the seals or something, I really don't understand the book of Revelation all that well.
Me: So could he have misinterpreted this? Is there any way to find out if it could have been something else?
Ben: Well....I doubt he misinterpreted it, I doubt there is anyway to find out if it was something else because Joseph Smith is dead so we can't really ask him.
Me: Is there anything in this passage we could use to reaserch further?
Ben: I guess we could google the date to see but I don't know how much we could find that far back
So I told him to Google it and tell me what he came up with
The first site was a Christian site which we both ignored but the following sites are what he came up with
http://starryskies.com/articles/dln/11-98/leonids.html
http://leonid.arc.nasa.gov/history.html
http://science.nasa.gov/newhome/headlines/ast22jun99_2.htm
Me: So what really occured here?
Ben: It was a leonid meteor shower
Me: Have any other meteor showers occured since then?
Ben: Yes, all the time
Me: Based on what you read did people from different parts of the world misinterpret this also as a sign from God?
Ben: They thought the apocalypse was upon them...some even were repenting.
Me: Do you think that people living this time period would have know the difference between a meteor shower and a sign from god?
Ben: Well No I don't think they would, how could they really I mean we know more now about this kind of stuff..like in our time period......But Joseph Smith being a prophet of God should have known....I mean maybe not what a meteor shower was, but shouldn't he have know that this wasn't really a sign from god? I mean I have seen shooting stars before, they happen all the time. They are just rock particles passing through our atmosphere. According to that website November is a prime time of year for them.
Me: So if you saw a meteor shower or even a shooting star would you think it was a sign from God or a natural event?
Ben: Well...I know it's a natural event within Gods universe but....I guess you could say it was a sign too but that really doesn't make sense....cause these are common things.
Me: So was Joseph Smith wrong in how he interpreted it?
Ben: Well ....I uh guess so...and he could have asked God for clarification considering how much interaction he had
Me: So was Smith wrong?
Wow......I never really thought about but yea, I mean a real prophet who was chosen by god should be more aware of things.....than your average person...at least you would think so....and he never got any kind of warning ahead of time about this. Hmm...this is interesting
Now obviously this isn't what pushed him over the edge but this was what I call the "turning point" or where I planted a seed of doubt in his mind. From there It was almost like I could see him breaking down more and more each day. The whole point of writing this out was to encourage people to approach it in more of a one on one study, using critical questioning rather than insulting. It has worked for me! :)