I'm a Whedon fan but I do think he has problems with feminism sometimes, rather in the same way Mark Twain wrote an anti-racist book that's still not an accurate portrayal of blacks in the 1830s. Not that I associate myself with Blogger McCrazy overthere, but. Agree that River was never meant to be a feminist symbol the way Buffy was, for example.
I do really hate Elizabeth Swann, though. :/ I'm sure there are more I could put on that list if I really thought about it. Hmmmmmm. Wonder Woman has been problematical since her inception, to say the least. But most comic book characters have long, dark periods of fail, so that's no surprise.
It's hard for me to incriminate comic characters because they fluctuate so much with their writers, but I've never liked Wonder Woman and I've never found her satsifying as an "icon." I'm not sure that inklings count for much.
The problem with Wonder Woman as an icon is that she's never had a stable metaphor to ground herself in. Batman and Superman have mostly stable origins with set themes and mythos that have been added to and subtracted from over time. (So there might be a crappy Batman run, but the idea of Batman is still safe!) But Wonder Woman gets her whole context remade every few years, it seems. This is probably because originally Wonder Woman was an elaborate bondage metaphor and that really can't fly for a feminist icon.
Really though, I'd rather evaluate characters as characters rather than how well they're presented as strong females. I am definitely a feminist, but I'd rather read about a character with interesting and compelling flaws than a textbook set of strengths. Not that I want to watch females just wait around to be rescued and have no emotional depth whatsoever, but.
THANK you. I was arguing that point earlier. I'd rather see a good female character who is a spineless doormat than another badass action chick who takes no guff and shoots her gun whenever she damn well pleases, but apparently has no other personality traits.
AGREED. Granted, with the badass actioneer archetype, no depth is kind of the point. (I'd argue that there's almost a channelling of the Kantian notion of the sublime, and then smack myself for referencing Kant. Definitely works on the turning off human emotions to gain superhuman strengths principle.) But. GAAAAAAH. Just because a character is a girl with a sword doesn't mean you've created a new feminist icon. You've just made a sex object that can swing a pointy stick at things. So what? :/ NOT IMPRESSED.
Sometimes I get flak for my Celes-appreciation because she's not "strong." But the way she actually faces her weaknesses and shortcomings as Badass Action Girl are exactly why I love her.
Why would anyone give you flak for liking Celes? I think she's a very poignant character. And when she is sad or depressed or giving up, she's not just angsting around so that someone can give her a motivational speech.
(Though, to be perfectly honest, her little thing with Locke did bug me a little bit.)
Celes is tricky because she's sort of a deconstruction of the archetype, and she does dramatic, drastic things.
I'm kind of a diehard L/C [I am just about the most obsessive Locke fangirl you can find, fair warning] person BUT I actually hated it too at first. My idea was that it wasn't Locke exactly that she fell for, but what he was (trying to) stand for. All the big damn heroism and the caring for people out of nowhere, WHICH WAS ACTUALLY A HUGE LIE BECAUSE LOCKE IS A CREEPY NECROPHILIAC. But, he gives her that hope and motivation to go on and finds herself doing it, with or without him. And then she in turn rescues him awwwwwwwww.
IT IS NOT ABOUT LOCKE COMING IN AND RESCUING HER WHILE SHE COOS AND HIS MANLY ROMANCE NOVEL-ESQUE MUSCLES EMBRACE HER PETITE FRAME. Goddamn, whole other rant, but no one gets this right.
I got to disagree on Batman or Superman being stable when the comic writers still debate who is the "real" person and who is the mask: Bruce or Batman? Superman or Clark? This concept has changed a lot.
Total stability in a long-running serialized narrative is pretty impossible, but even compared to Superman, there's been remarkably little done to Batman's origin story and his greater mythos-- Alfred, Robin, most of the rogues. I mean, after CoIE in 1985, Batman was the only one of their big three that didn't get completely retooled. Jason Todd got a new origin and haircolor, and that was about it. (But speaking of characters with inconsistent portrayals...) I don't want to discount the tension between the Lone Survivor of Krypton gimmick and the weighty absurdity of the Silver Age Superman universe, but I think Superman still works in either concept and is still fundamentally Superman.
And, well, the dialogue between the Man and the Mask has been a constant in all superhero narrative at least since Watchmen. And I don't think that that dialogue is out of place in the core of their respective mythos. Superman is something more-than-man trying to be human, Batman is something human trying to be more-than-that. Wonder Woman can
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I do really hate Elizabeth Swann, though. :/ I'm sure there are more I could put on that list if I really thought about it. Hmmmmmm. Wonder Woman has been problematical since her inception, to say the least. But most comic book characters have long, dark periods of fail, so that's no surprise.
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Really though, I'd rather evaluate characters as characters rather than how well they're presented as strong females. I am definitely a feminist, but I'd rather read about a character with interesting and compelling flaws than a textbook set of strengths. Not that I want to watch females just wait around to be rescued and have no emotional depth whatsoever, but.
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Sometimes I get flak for my Celes-appreciation because she's not "strong." But the way she actually faces her weaknesses and shortcomings as Badass Action Girl are exactly why I love her.
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(Though, to be perfectly honest, her little thing with Locke did bug me a little bit.)
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I'm kind of a diehard L/C [I am just about the most obsessive Locke fangirl you can find, fair warning] person BUT I actually hated it too at first. My idea was that it wasn't Locke exactly that she fell for, but what he was (trying to) stand for. All the big damn heroism and the caring for people out of nowhere, WHICH WAS ACTUALLY A HUGE LIE BECAUSE LOCKE IS A CREEPY NECROPHILIAC. But, he gives her that hope and motivation to go on and finds herself doing it, with or without him. And then she in turn rescues him awwwwwwwww.
IT IS NOT ABOUT LOCKE COMING IN AND RESCUING HER WHILE SHE COOS AND HIS MANLY ROMANCE NOVEL-ESQUE MUSCLES EMBRACE HER PETITE FRAME. Goddamn, whole other rant, but no one gets this right.
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And, well, the dialogue between the Man and the Mask has been a constant in all superhero narrative at least since Watchmen. And I don't think that that dialogue is out of place in the core of their respective mythos. Superman is something more-than-man trying to be human, Batman is something human trying to be more-than-that. Wonder Woman can ( ... )
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