On Discouragement

[ragnvaeig]

I had a discussion with a friend about a particular prospect who is currently considering dedicating himself to religious path that's at least very similar to the one I've chosen. Without having any real information on said prospect's level of commitment, to me this person seems to have an incomplete understanding of what this particular deity

Comments

Re: On Discouragement

[ragnvaeig]

Is that a more passive form of selection, then?

[sterling_raptor]

I don't discourage someone from what they believe is their path because it is just as easy to let them walk it and figure that out for themselves. Anyone who comes to me for teaching agrees to a "learning contract" where I clearly spell out my expectations of them as a student, some of the things they can expect from the program and from me, and that either of us can choose to end the relationship at any time. When people who aren't serious realize I expect them to *gasp!* read books and do homework, to include write papers, they tend to find reasons why they will be too busy to study with me.

[ragnvaeig]

So for you, it's more of a passive "can you hack it?" question?

(And as a prof, I approve of syllabi and reading lists and analytical papers--that is awesome.)

[sterling_raptor]

Pretty much. I let them know as much as possible about the topics we will be covering, the books they will need to have (they can't borrow mine), and the different types of projects they will have to do which include papers, presentations, and arts/crafts. I want them to be able to make an informed decision about giving this a go, and it saves my sanity too because I am tired of "OH OH OH!!!! I WANNA LEARN!!!! Wait...this is work! BYE!"

[ragnvaeig]

Sounds like a useful process for weeding out those who aren't serious. Is commitment your main criterion, then?

[onyxtwilight]

In case you didn't catch it at the time, there was a fair amount of excellent discussion around this topic not too long ago.

http://community.livejournal.com/nonfluffypagans/892434.html

[ragnvaeig]

I do recall that post--it was one of the places I'd seen people talking about not-hand-holding and the like--but I was looking for more focused opinions, hence my specific questions.

[keastree]

I neither encourage or discourage. If you want to study with me, it is up to you to find out what the expectations of you might be, by opening a mature and thoughtful dialog. It will be you, however, who is required to ask for my time(because I am a volunteer) and will be required to be motivated enough to seek the knowledge.

Then, if you can get through the training process, you can be initiated.

Most people are discouraged because I do not ask. Many more are discouraged because there is no fanfare. Even more get pissed off and leave because there is no validation of their magical and spiritual claims. Usually, not giving much reaction to foolishness is enough to send people who are not there for the right reasons, looking somewhere else.

[ragnvaeig]

So there's still a weeding-out process, at least?

Is there encouragement eventually for students who stick with it, or are you of the doing-well-is-its-own-reward school?

[keastree]

People not really interested in doing The Work will remove themselves, because the process is not filled with bells, whistles, and carnival prizes.

Define 'encouragement'. Is not becoming a peer a rich enough reward? The goal is to train your peers, not make a bunch of subservient flunkies.

[ragnvaeig]

Encouragement for me is heavily coloured by my day job, where I need to provide regular feedback with regard to progress (i.e. doing as expected, or you can do better than this). I mean it mostly in letting them know where they stand in reference to the goal and whether they are meeting your expectations.

[cat_77]

I think I'd go the route my own teachers did with me: "So you think you are interested in [X]. Know that people change their minds and not everything you think will be the right fit turns out to work for you. Knowing this, explain to me why you think [X] is the right choice for you."

I quoted books and facts and this and that and the other thing. The thing that convinced them was when I said, "You know, honestly, there's all that, but there's this overwhelming feeling. I see [X], I feel [X], and I believe there's a connection of sorts at work." Even then, I did not dedicate myself to [X]. I dedicated myself to learning more about dedicating myself to [X].

If I really desperately thought something was the wrong choice for someone, I'd tell them to think long and hard about why they think it's right. Then I'd tell then to look up stuff on [Y] instead, and see if they felt the same or different. In the end, it's their choice, not yours. It's just your choice as to whether or not you're going to be the one to teach them.

[ragnvaeig]

That's mostly what my intended approach might be, though I'd be in a much less direct advisory capacity than any kind of formal mentor.

Would you include any measure of personal experience in explaining things to this person?

[cat_77]

Would you include any measure of personal experience in explaining things to this person?

It would honestly depend on how well I knew them and or what kind of feel I got from them. It could vary between, "Hey, even I changed my mind at one point, which is why thinking it over is a good thing," to "At one point, I believed [X]," and giving examples. More than likely though (unless it was a truly good friend), I would keep it vague. It's their choice and you'd hate to seem like you are deciding for them. Maybe they need to go down a certain path and fail at it before they can find what's right for them. It might help them in the long run.

[ragnvaeig]

If it were, say, a higher-stakes sort of practice, would you still be rather vague?