Have you ever considered piracy?

[monimala]

"Have you ever considered piracy? You'd make a wonderful Dread Pirate Roberts."
--Westley, The Princess Bride.

Pirates of Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl and Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest are touted as being Johnny Depp vehicles, as being movies about Captain Jack Sparrow or about Orlando Bloom's painfully honorable

Comments

[sal101010]

What a fascinating reading of the stories! I'm inclined to agree, but I haven't seen Dead Man's Chest yet. However I'm sure my viewing of it will be greatly influenced by what you said. I'm really looking forward to it. And I'm not really surprised at where Elizabeth ends up. You're right - she's married more to piracy than anything!

[monimala]

I'm sorry you've gotten thoroughly spoiled for Dead Man's Chest by reading this...I didn't necessarily want to color the perspective of anyone who hasn't seen it yet.

I'm glad you found my musings fascinating, though. I've always loved Elizabeth the most out of the three primary characters because I've identified with her. Being a woman who wants adventure, who wants to live in a man's world and make it her own, and being torn between what's proper (Will) and improper (Jack)...I think her character arc is just so compelling.

[monimala]

See, I think Elizabeth loved the *idea* of Will. She loved the idea of Will being this pirate who washed up on her ship from England, etc. She built up this mystique, this mythology, and shaped him to match it. Just like he built up this image of "Miss Swann," the pure lady. But reality is very different...and Elizabeth's pirate fantasy is made flesh in Jack Sparrow. I don't think she's willing to accept that yet (hence her chaining Jack up in DMC) but it's still true.

Han's less duplicitous than Jack, yeah, but only just slightly... ;-).

[monimala]

Han's definitely easier to read than Jack. He's cut and dried, you know what drives him. Jack...not so much. He's a total mystery.

[obeetaybee]

I think what you've managed to do here is formulate into words half-thought and not nearly fully formed thoughts of how I perceived the Will/Elizabeth/Jack triangle from the very beginning, when I saw the movie in the theaters three years ago.

Elizabeth craves adventure, you can see it when she was a young girl from the opening scene in the movie and Will Turner is a mystery from the get go. But what if there really isn't anything to him (as we're sort of being shown in DMC's)? She would be miserable in a marriage such as that.

Anyways, I'm glad I discovered you. (Ah, I'm cheating on my normal fandom, Harry Potter. Shhh...don't tell. ;) )

You write extremely well and I hope you don't mind if I friend you, I'd hate to miss more of your fic!

[monimala]

I had much the same thoughts when I saw the first film in the theaters three years ago. While everyone was falling all over themselves to sigh over Will, to write Jack/Will, I kept wanting to tug at their sleeves and go, "But...but, wait. Don't you SEE what's going on here?" Will's a nice guy, a decent guy. And that's pretty much it. Every story needs one, but that's pretty much all there is to him. It's the fantasy Elizabeth had as a child -- and his fantasy of her, too == versus who they really are.

I'm sorry you're cheating on Harry Potter. Actually, I'm not...since those folks are CRAZY! LOL! ;-). You're not a sockpuppet, are you? *peers at you suspiciously*.

Glad you like my writing style.

I don't mind if you friend me, but I don't really friend people back, so if you require reciprocity, that ain't happenin'. :-).

[obeetaybee]

Nah, not a sockpuppet. With me, what you see is what you get.

And I like to think I'm not a crazy shipper HP fan. I just write whatever comes to mind.

As for the friending thing, I'm a 'to each their own' type of gal. I just don't want to miss fic. If you have a fic journal, I'll be happy to friend that instead of your personal one.

[monimala]

I don't have a separate fic journal, so this is all she (or I) wrote. :-). People get all weird about this friending process, so I just like to make sure people know my stance on it up front.

As for the sock puppet/crazy 'shipper jokes...I can't help it. Those of us on the outside of the fandom have been amusing ourselves with these references for a while and I know it's wholly unfair to tar everyone with the same brush. But...seriously...? Bwee! We'll be beating that not-so=dead Ms. Scribe horse for YEARS. LOL.

[erinya]

Wandered over to your journal via your lovely fic at pirategasm and must say that I agree on all counts. I was just thinking yesterday that Elizabeth is the protagonist of these movies. She is the first character we see in both CotBP and DMC, and her actions drive the plot forward as much or more than Will's. I love her for this, for being an active heroine rather than a passive damsel.

Also, agreed on the original Star Wars parallels...although Jack was channelling C-3PO way more than Han in the cannibal island scenes. XD But Will is so Luke. Yes.

When Lizzie said "I'm so ready to be married," though, I interpreted it as "I'm so ready to GET LAID." She was ticked off about missing out on her wedding night. Not her wedding day.

I see you've got BtVS, Doctor Who and GA in your interests BTW...would you mind if I added you?

[monimala]

I'm wondering if Elizabeth's active role is what makes her such a hated character to many. If she was just a peripheral piece of fluff, would viewers like her better? If you could just close your eyes and gloss over her and make-believe the boys are all gay for each other, does that make it better

[erinya]

I'm wondering if Elizabeth's active role is what makes her such a hated character to many. If she was just a peripheral piece of fluff, would viewers like her better?

Yes. I think if it was easier to ignore her, the hate would be much less virulent. I see strong female characters reviled A LOT in fandom, and it always strikes me as misogyny, despite the fact that fandom is very much a female institution. An assertive, clever, sexual woman automatically gets labeled "bitch," "whore," etc.--by other women.

It's not just a fandom phenomenon, of course. But it's really extraordinary Elizabeth gets hate for doing and being all the things for which fandom loves Jack Sparrow: she is cunning, seductive, manipulative, and willing to do whatever is necessary to further her agenda. He's excused because he's a "pirate!" and excuses her likewise, but fandom is not so evenhanded.

And no worries, I don't mind not being added back, I just want to make sure I don't miss any fic or meta from you. :-)

[monimala]

I never understand why men get the "free pass" and female characters are reviled and denigrated for the exact same behavior by members *of their own gender*.

I wish someone could explain it to me. What's so important about having a penis? Seriously? why does that excuse your actions?

[st_crispins]

Here from metafandom.

And I agree that Elizabeth is the central character. Whioch actually makes it a progressive step from the original SW trilogy, where Luke was central (I read a great article once comparing SW and Wizard of OZ, discussing them as gendered fairy tales. The parallels are considerable).

I also agree that there are parallels between SW and PoTC and you've pointed out a lot of them. Good job!

As for Elizabeth being torn between Will and Jack and what's the attraction? That's easy: Will and Jack are the two sides to Elizabeth, the nobel side and the pirate side.

As for who she'll end up with, hey, maybe she'll discover Will is her long-lost brother and she was just adopted by the governor :)

[monimala]

*crosses fingers in the hopes that Elizabeth is actually Bootstrap's daughter...*

Of course, that would throw off the entire canon of the first movie since her blood didn't work on the cursed gold...but let me cling to my delusions for just a split second! LOL!

Obviously there are distinct differences between the two trilogies as well and I can't even begin to speculate about how they'll tie things up in the third portion, who ends up with who, etc. But from an overall arc standpoint, I just want to see each character find their destiny and their place...like they did in Star Wars. Han just happened to learn his was with Leia and the Alliance and vice versa for her.

[st_crispins]

I would guess that they'll actually end up with something similar with the fan's OTP3. [I also suspect Elizabeth will get her ship in the end :)]

But then, Norrington might throw it off. Think the producers have been reading the Sparrington fic?

I hope your idea that PoTC is really Elizabeth's story will catch on. I'd like to see some academic papers from feminist scholars to compete with all the Buffy studies.

[monimala]

I definitely want to see Elizabeth end up with her own ship, mistress of her own soul and own destiny, etc. I wouldn't be averse to an OT3 ending if that's where the canon is shaping up to lead, but, basically, I'm happy as long as we see the theme of Elizabeth's development as her own person (good or bad) carried through.

I think there's so much knee-jerk impulse in fandom to read everything as slashy, to interpret text from the male perspective and from the male-on-male perspective that a lot of the feminist and female-centric readings fall by the wayside. Just like with Buffy, you wind up with female consumers, *women themselves*, thinking vaginas are icky, girls are bitches and whores, and cute boys rule all...especially the seas.