a few points...theholycowJune 18 2004, 04:25:13 UTC
I agree with pretty much everything you say... I just have a few points on some of it, mostly what you said directly responding to me (of course :o) and some response the the liberal vs. conservativism...
First, liberal v. conservativism... I completely agree that there is really no huge difference beyond semantics in the ideas of the democratic and republican party, however, you seem to be crossing the term democrat and republican with liberal and conservative and they are not in any way one and the same. I haven't gone through and re-read all 14 comments and the original post, but my recolection of the original post is that the rant was more against conservativism than republicanism. While republicans and democrats do pretty well share the same views on social security, medicare, welfare, etc. so labeled "conservative" and "liberal" groups frequently differ significantly in opinion on those matters. While all the terms can be used very broadly, my impression is that the topic of discussion was moral-conservativism, not republicanism.
On patriotism... You gave the dictionary definition of "patriotism" ("Love of and devotion to one's country") but subsequently used two definitions of country, which is the key word in the definition of patriotism! You said, "i think that this country IS this administration, it makes the calls and appoints the heads of all the little departments and offices who make all the decisions regarding how this place is run, and sometimes who lives and who dies" and then later, "You love freedom, that can be done w/o loving the USofA, you can love certain people that have come from the United States and even certain ideals. But i don't think that by virtue of our geographic location and arbitrary borders did all of these things come about." so it seems to me (and I apologize if I just didn't get the point, I just got back from a very long shift at work and may not be thinking completely clearly) that one definition of a country is the administration and the other is arbitrary borders... Now... I agree that it's nearly impossible to feel love for arbitrary borders, but I think you would find great opposition to the idea that one cannot love an area or a particular piece of land... This, however, is not my idea of patriotism. The other definition of the country is that the country is the adminstration, however you contradict this idea later by pointing out the fact that the majority of the country DIDN'T vote for this adminstration. So that definition really doesn't seem to work... My personal idea of what patriotism is (and bear in mind, this is my rosey optimism, and personal idea) is almost more... love of history. Or... pride in the history. As you said, (and I repeat my earlier quote...) "You love freedom, that can be done w/o loving the USofA, you can love certain people that have come from the United States and even certain ideals" and I agree, but that doesn't mean someone cannot take pride in a rich history that was so affected and shaped by those ideals and that freedom.
I suppose when it comes down to it, patriotism really is a silly thing. Why feel pride for a name of a place, or even just the place, that happened to be where great things happened? But if you're going to by a cynic (and just so I don't open myself up to a critique on my use of the word, I'm using it in it's modern definition, not it's philisophical) everything we value is silly; Love, family, money, home, food, etc. I mean... what's a mother and father other than two people who screwed each other, waited a few months, popped out a kid and maybe raised them for the next decade or two? And what's a home other than shelter and storage space? My point is that we attache sentemental feelings to things that, when pared down to a few simple words, really don't seem deserving of the sentement. But it's human nature to feel, and to have emotion... Hence, my rosey view of patriotism.
Also, as for wilde and twains comments, they seem the kind of thing that would be aimed more at nationalism disguised as patriotism (working on the theme of the guy that posted after me), especially coming from two men who so notably loved the places they called home. Try to keep the cliches in context.
First, liberal v. conservativism... I completely agree that there is really no huge difference beyond semantics in the ideas of the democratic and republican party, however, you seem to be crossing the term democrat and republican with liberal and conservative and they are not in any way one and the same. I haven't gone through and re-read all 14 comments and the original post, but my recolection of the original post is that the rant was more against conservativism than republicanism. While republicans and democrats do pretty well share the same views on social security, medicare, welfare, etc. so labeled "conservative" and "liberal" groups frequently differ significantly in opinion on those matters. While all the terms can be used very broadly, my impression is that the topic of discussion was moral-conservativism, not republicanism.
On patriotism... You gave the dictionary definition of "patriotism" ("Love of and devotion to one's country") but subsequently used two definitions of country, which is the key word in the definition of patriotism! You said, "i think that this country IS this administration, it makes the calls and appoints the heads of all the little departments and offices who make all the decisions regarding how this place is run, and sometimes who lives and who dies" and then later, "You love freedom, that can be done w/o loving the USofA, you can love certain people that have come from the United States and even certain ideals. But i don't think that by virtue of our geographic location and arbitrary borders did all of these things come about." so it seems to me (and I apologize if I just didn't get the point, I just got back from a very long shift at work and may not be thinking completely clearly) that one definition of a country is the administration and the other is arbitrary borders... Now... I agree that it's nearly impossible to feel love for arbitrary borders, but I think you would find great opposition to the idea that one cannot love an area or a particular piece of land... This, however, is not my idea of patriotism. The other definition of the country is that the country is the adminstration, however you contradict this idea later by pointing out the fact that the majority of the country DIDN'T vote for this adminstration. So that definition really doesn't seem to work... My personal idea of what patriotism is (and bear in mind, this is my rosey optimism, and personal idea) is almost more... love of history. Or... pride in the history. As you said, (and I repeat my earlier quote...) "You love freedom, that can be done w/o loving the USofA, you can love certain people that have come from the United States and even certain ideals" and I agree, but that doesn't mean someone cannot take pride in a rich history that was so affected and shaped by those ideals and that freedom.
I suppose when it comes down to it, patriotism really is a silly thing. Why feel pride for a name of a place, or even just the place, that happened to be where great things happened? But if you're going to by a cynic (and just so I don't open myself up to a critique on my use of the word, I'm using it in it's modern definition, not it's philisophical) everything we value is silly; Love, family, money, home, food, etc. I mean... what's a mother and father other than two people who screwed each other, waited a few months, popped out a kid and maybe raised them for the next decade or two? And what's a home other than shelter and storage space? My point is that we attache sentemental feelings to things that, when pared down to a few simple words, really don't seem deserving of the sentement. But it's human nature to feel, and to have emotion... Hence, my rosey view of patriotism.
Also, as for wilde and twains comments, they seem the kind of thing that would be aimed more at nationalism disguised as patriotism (working on the theme of the guy that posted after me), especially coming from two men who so notably loved the places they called home. Try to keep the cliches in context.
P.S.
I'm Eric, by the way. :o)
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