The Great Debate - Are Napoleon and Illya "canon?"

[vmccooley]

There was an interesting discussion over on Tumblr about subtext and whether Napoleon/Illya is just fan invention. I thought I'd share my own contribution to the matter.

1968 - "We have each other."

Comments

[leethet]

I've heard strong opinions on both sides, but it strikes me subtext is in the eye of the beholder. For me, I would suspect that the writers of the show in general probably (probably because I don't know but assume heterosexuality as the norm) didn't mean anything but playful friendship. That said, if someone slipped in a little line or physical joke that hinted at sex, it wouldn't be the first or last time that's happened on a show.

Personally, I don't perceive any suggested sexuality between them on the show. I perceive friendship and the subtext is of a deep friendship ("A very good friend of mine" kinds of things). I translate that into slash by my own choosing.

Others' mileage can, and certainly does, vary. :-)

[vmccooley]

I agree about the eye of the beholder. Slash or not, their relationship is special.

[elmey]

I perceive friendship and the subtext is of a deep friendship ("A very good friend of mine" kinds of things). I translate that into slash by my own choosing.

That's pretty much how I look at it too. I'm a bit fascinated by the way some of the young tumblrites who are now looking at the series are going in expecting slash--so of course they see it everywhere. Lots of talk about how such and such is really "queer coding". I just don't think that's what was happening at the time. Sure a wink here and there maybe, but those jokes happen among any group of people working together for a while.

[leethet]

I'm sure this is just me being old, but I've read comments about "queer coding" and things like that from a number of significantly younger fen, and I can only say we see through the eyes we've got, and they're trained based in the culture of their time, but I think they're seeing what they want to see because it's a philosophy they approve of. Maybe we all do that. :-) But the younger fen don't know what the era was like in the way people who were there (and who were attentive to culture and entertainment culture in particular) know. Twenty years ago, ten years ago - sure. There has been more fannish involvement in entertainment and closer ties between fans and shows, and an openness to homosexuality. Before then? Not so much.

[jessebee]

Was going to comment on this, but you just very neatly said everything I was going to, and probably better! *g*

[leethet]

What is queer coding?

[vmccooley]

Elmey gives a very good explanation below.

[bluemeanybeany]

What is queer coding? I tried google but its not helping. Its saying Jafar in Alladdin was gay, bur the bloke spent the entire time trying to sleep with Princess Jasamine and turn her into a slave and his one wish to the genie was that Jasamine fall in love with him.

[elmey]

It's basically giving a character a queer subtext without explicitly admitting that they're queer. The most obvious example would be a really effeminate character who isn't admittedly gay.
In Mfu you could look at Illya's lack of interest in women for example. Or Napoleon's fastidiousness about his clothes and his little hand movements. Or the way the two are always standing close together and so on.

Overall those things don't have to mean anything, but if you want to, you can see them as purposeful hints on how to read their characters.

What we're saying is that they weren't meant to be hints back in the day, we just read them like that because we want to. In a more modern show the issue is different. The creators know that fans like those hints and will put them in on purpose, though they'll often deny that's what they're doing because they don't want to upset the other half of the audience.

One of these days we'll get to the point where you can actually have gay or bi characters in the lead and you don't have to play

[franciskerst]

I really saw more than that when I watched the show as a teenager, though thinking it was crazy of me and nobody else could ever get the same (shameful and improper) idea.

[vmccooley]

I was quite surprised when I discovered that other people saw slashiness too. Hell, I didn't know it had a name!

[leethet]

Many people have seen more. Some people have even observed that they're quite certain there are intentional gay references in the show. I don't pretend to know what anyone intends except myself. :-) I only know how the show seemed to me.