Madrigality

[mendoza]

I was going to post this as a comment in response to sithlorddarren's impassioned post, but as I'm not a Friend, I can't. Still, I think it's a valid question and I would love to hear what people think:

Comments

[sithlorddarren]

Well, defining banishment would be the first order of business. I assume that, by banishment, they mean "If we see you. We'll kill you." This would make life horribly difficult for the PC in question, but not impossible. It changes their game dramatically, forcing them to either live life in hiding or find ways to exonorate/redeem themselves in the eyes of the banishers. The problem, and the basis of the moral dilemma, is that while IG it makes complete and perfect sense, OOG, it takes the fun away from the banished. It says to the banished, "You're not part of the cool club".

Now, disregarding banishment, we can look at the other mechanic that is currently in place. Elshean justice. This is not all that dissimilar really. There is a vastly greater than significant chance that, when a player is slain and given an Elshean writ, that they will never return. Galan was fortunate and returned to the living. This had nothing to do with Ellishar's writ. They do not counterbalance each other in any way shape or form. This would seem to be an adequate form of punishment, though, there may be some argument as to which is more severe. Now, if you chose to go by White Court laws (and Galan sincerely hopes you do) then the Reapers have deemed me fit to stay among the living.

In conclusion, it's a very complicated issue that could be discussed for hours and hours. I would lean toward the Elshean form of justice, though that too seems horribly severe. I don't have a solution. I wish I did.

[arianhwyvar]

I'm a bit confused by the whole thing, because I thought in the setting it was strongly set up that in the eyes of the White Court, death cleansed someone of crimes. And that while some Elsheans find 'mere death' insufficient if someone can come back to life (which is why the Elshean writ exists, for cases when the crimes are so significant that you really have to make the death 'count', since you aren't supposed to kill someone twice for the same offense), that that is not the White Court majority position.

I'm sort of getting the impression that especially since the death system has changed, players have somewhat begun to feel that death doesn't have as much of a punch, and so are less ok with having a single (non-writed) death make up for a PC crime, even if that would be perfectly appropriate in the setting.

Do you think that is part of what is going on?

[sithlorddarren]

The death system really hasn't changed. The Elshean writ was never a guarantee. The Elshean writ increases your chances of perming from approximately 1:25, plus or minus with consideration to the number of previous deaths, to around 3:4 in my estimation. Galan (my character) was VERY VERY LUCKY to have come back from that.

I think some of the issue may be that they were hoping for Galan to perm, and I did not. There may have been some misconception on their part that the Elshean writ was a concrete and permanent solution. It's possible that a lot of the resentment stems from that.

Now, my character has been told by the Elsheans that, in their eyes, I should recieve no further retribution. However, they're not speaking for the entirety of the PC populace. We'll have to see how things go.

[vastin]

Ultimately, player considerations of punishment come down to this - they don't give a crap how the punishment works so long as it either:

A) Renders you incapable of committing a future offense (ie, permanently dead or banished)

B) Scares you so badly that you (and no one else) ever commits a future offense for fear of suffering that punishment again.

That's it. That's ALL that matters. It doesn't matter what plot says about the gods, and it doesn't matter how the rules work.

Some players may allow themselves to follow the 'philosophy' laid down by the plot staff for the game universe for a time, but ultimately, if it doesn't work they will eventually discard it and come up with a system of punishment that works (or at least one that they feel works better).

In this case, the players are considering abandoning the creed of the White Court and banishing you because they believe that the method of punishment is insufficient to the task of either preventing you or discouraging others from taking similar actions in the future.

I'm not at all surprised people are discussing it out of game, because frankly it is an important and complex issue - there isn't enough time DURING game to hammer it out properly or fairly.

I think you should be happy that people ARE taking the time to discuss it OOG, because if they left it for the short amount of time available IG under pressure at the next event, I think the chances are 9 in 10 you'd find yourself carrying another Elshayan writ within 1 hour of game starting, followed by a permanent stint in NPC camp.

In the meantime, I suggest you work hard to change their minds about that, or at least come up with something seriously cool to say in your defense at the start of the next event if they are all still up in arms...

[mendoza]

I think you've hit the nail on the head. From a player perspective, punishment isn't so much about reprisals for past behavior (although that's part of it) as it is an effort to see that said anti-social behavior doesn't keep happening. It's not just what someone did to hurt the town, it's how likely the town thinks they are to do it again (and again, and again).

The severity of the town reaction is also affected by how many times either the individual in question or other individuals have gotten off lightly for such behavior in the past. It's not necessarily fair to let frustration and exasperation influence punishment, but you can't overlook the "fer cryin' out loud, will you idiots ever learn?" factor.

[beled_el_djinn]

I'm a bit confused by the whole thing, because I thought in the setting it was strongly set up that in the eyes of the White Court, death cleansed someone of crimes.

If you read the rule book* you'd think that, but I've heard it put forth that if you don't end up drawing a card from death then it isn't a "valid" death (i'm paraphrasing here). Personally I find that a crack monkey theory since, the whole point of having to go through the gate of death is that your character died. But what the heck do I know? I guess I'll have to stop being traumatized in character whenever I die if I get a walk death's realm before passing through the gate.

*"Aradach has ruled that none of the gifted races should pay twice for one crime, and thus when one pays for their crimes with their life they are seen from that point forward as innocent in the eyes of the Ordained."

[arianhwyvar]

Weird. Like, how would people know? I mean, that might make sense if there are people with the ability to see if death has properly 'washed you clean' or whatever, in which case maybe someone the act of drawing a card would do so while not drawing wouldn't....

But without ways for people in the setting to tell and thus draw a legal and religious difference, I feel this attitude smacks strongly of larper 'if there's no mechanic associated with it, it didn't happen, and roleplaying it having an impact is silly.'

[vastin]

It's fine to do fluffy roleplay about philosophical stuff that has no impact, but roleplaying in a manner that has a directly adverse impact on your character's chances of survival is another matter (unless your character is into that kind of thing, I suppose).

If the gods say a PC is clean, but the last two times we killed him he came back and betrayed us again, or sought revenge - then guess what? The Gods and their Philosophy can go take a flying leap into the lake.

If they want their philosophy to mean something then they better be ready to back it up with force. If I risk a visit from Death with field combat stats for repeatedly whacking a player as punishment THEN I will take the philosophy of the Gods under careful advisement at all times.

At that point I'd probably just organize a Round-Robin execution squad to deal with the infractor, so that he never gets sent to Death twice by the same character - or find creative ways to get him 'accidentally' killed during mass battles - whatever.

Letting other PC's blow up my weekend by selling out to the dark gods is not something I choose to take or forgive lightly if I become aware of it.

[mendoza]

So, uh......can you somehow be persuaded to PC Madrigal? ;)

[nomadmwe]

Then we can instantly saddle him with the position of Sherriff and watch the fun begin! :)