Well, I will say what I think now and not wait till September.
1. I agree in principle with a rating system and with certain types of stories not being eligible. 2. I disagree with a system by which stories rated 5 - and these stories only - have to be defended by the author upfront. This is unfair, because peope are trusted to correctly rate stories 1-4, but not 5. It is also unnecessary, because since presumbaly all 5 rated stories now have to go to a panel anyway, they might as well go to that panel without the author having to write an essay on them first. 3. I can understand that the rating system itself can not be changed at this point, since that would require changes to the website. But I don't see why the requirement to defend the story upfront cannot simply be dropped. 4. Personally, I find the rating system as it has been posted now confusing and inconsistent. Especially the prase "even an adult might find upsetting" is extremely vague since different people find different things upsetting, depending on their personal
I'm trying not to discuss what should be changed now, for the reasons I've given several times. I have saved this email and will keep them in mind when we have our discussion in September.
There was one suggestion you made, and I want to explain why we can't just make that change for 2012. You said:
3. I can understand that the rating system itself can not be changed at this point, since that would require changes to the website. But I don't see why the requirement to defend the story upfront cannot simply be dropped.Let's say we did that. We still have the requirement that certain types of content (graphic sex, graphic violence, etc.) aren't eligible for the MEFAs. And we're in exactly the same situation we were in 2011. I still have that huge question of what to do if I find out a story isn't eligible, but find out very late in the awards. Do I let it compete even though it's ineligible? Or do we set up some kind of deadline and don't pull stories after that date for any reason? Both of those are pretty big policy
( ... )
You misunderstood me. I said if the story has to go to the ratings panel anyway, then you could easily drop the requirement for the author to provide an unfront explanation/justification. That's the one that really bugs me.
I'm sorry - I've read so many emails these last several days, I think I'm going a bit bleary-eyed. :^P I'm fine with making that explanation optional.
What I'll probably do for longer stories is ask to have a few chapters you want the panel to focus on, and also offer to pass along any other information or concerns the author has. But that last part will be optional. for shorter stories I can just tell the ratings panel to look at this story, without going to the author for more information first.
Marta and other admins... can you please please take off the requirement for the authors to write a statement as to why their story landed in the category 5 of any rating? You now have the luxury of having a large ratings panel and in the past this panel has done an excellent job. A very simple instruction to the liaisons can be given that any rating above 4 can be spotted by a liaison to put forward the panel. Let the ratings panel do their excellent job and do not add an extra burden for the authors where the forms are already quite a task as it already is.
I am not asking this for myself since I will not be participating due to personal reasons, but for those authors who do write stories that possibly could fall under the category 5.
Rhapsody, I'm not sure I understand what you're asking, so please bear with me.
Right now, if your story has a "5" in any area I will look to see if it's hosted at one of the archives that let you skip the ratings panel. If it is, I'll go ahead and finalize it. If it's not, then I would email you as the author and ask for a few pieces of information, most importantly the specific scenes that you want the panel to look at. I also give the author the opportunity to explain the context (what's going on before and after a scene), since the panel usually needs to know that. I think I ask for some other things, but those other things aren't really crucial
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No I am not, but the description thing is is exactly what I mean (it's far too late here, sorry about my muddled comment). Can the question be even shortened to just pointing out specific chapters instead of the author having to detail specifically detail material (scenes for example) should be looked at (I do think we're on the same page here right?)? I have some comments on the description field, but I will hold onto that 'till September.
I do believe that if you lessen this, many folks who are upset about this will feel less censored.
I have a question, Marta. Why was such a hot button topic addressed in a Star Chamber hearing, instead of at very least raising some of the proposed issues or concerns months ago? Surely you were aware that these are delicate questions.
Oshun, as I explained over at the Yahoo group I honestly thought of this as a finetuning of a longstanding policy - not a major change. Maybe I've just been on the outskirts of fandom too long (the MEFAs and the BMEM project are really my only fannish involvement these days); Since we weren't changing the kind of stories that's eligible for the MEFAs, I honestly didn't think it was a big issue.
It certainly wasn't anything conspiratorial, as your "Star Chamber hearing" language suggests (at least to me; I do hope I'm not reading too much into it) - just several very busy people trying their best to avoid having a bad situation repeat itself.
I chose Star Chamber deliberately to try to communicate the flavor to you of how I felt when I read your proposals. I think you worried about the sensitivities of others on this question, but not those who feel as I do. This topic has always been a fault line in the fandom.
I understood what you said when you have repeated it did not seem like a change to you but you should have known better. It is a change. The words I have used over and over are that it contains within it elements which cause a chilling effect which did not exist in the old somewhat vaguer guidelines and practices.
The whole mess particularly placed me in an awkward position because I promoted the MEFAs to people I felt were excellent writers, but who had always felt less welcomed by the MEFAs. I was largely successful in bringing in some more representative examples of the best work within the fandom. Now I feel like a jerk. And like I betrayed those I taunted for self-isolation.
Marta, I ask your forgiveness for posting now despite your delaying the discussion until September. Unfortunately, September being the first month of school for me, I don't know that I will be able to comment then. I don't expect a reply now and will try to speak up in September as well, but I did want to get my thoughts down now, while they are fresh
( ... )
[Continued because LJ couldn't digest my long comment. :)]
Which probably gets to the heart of my feelings on this issue: This is a fandom of adults. I don't think I know a single person in fandom under 18 anymore. This isn't Twilight or even Harry Potter where a significant contingent of participants are under the age of majority. It feels a bit absurd, given this, to read comments up-thread from mine discussing how to handle presenting, say, a 20-chapter story of 100,000 words that contains a single graphic sex scene. Rather than debating how best to present this story to the ratings folks, I ask why we are even considering the idea that this story cannot compete. With topics like bigotry and wartime violence that one can see on the evening news earning a 5, I suddenly feel like many of my stories that have been nominated for, competed in, and won MEFAs probably never should have been eligible at all
( ... )
Thanks for laying out your thoughts now. I'll keep them in mind when we discuss this again in September. :-) (Grad student to ex-grad student, I can only say that I hear you on the schedule busyness, and I appreciate you taking the time to lay out your thoughts when you had it to spare.)
I think a moment to define what the "justification" entails might cut to the meat of the matter, at least on that point. I know this part is unclear to me, and I feel it needs to be ironed out before nominations start coming in. I'll use my own story "The Dark One" which ran in 2008 and contains one of the most F-ed up scenes I've ever written, as an example.
Would the italicized section be sufficient to meet the "description" requirement in an entry that so many are concerned to see, or would the analysis of *why* that particular scene is necessary be needed as well?
The Ratings Panel would receive an email saying, essentially:
I'd like to check the eligibility of my short story "The Dark One," posted on Open Scrolls Archive, where it is rated as Adult for Implied Sex; Angst; Discussion of War-time Violence, including the death/dismemberment of an infant; and Disturbing Imagery.
(LINK)
Thanks for your help, Neu
STOP: TRIGGERS BELOW. Proceed cautiously.The situation that worried me is when a hopeless old grandmother
( ... )
Neume, this is exactly the kind of thing I want to clear up now rather than later. I can't remember when I used "justify" or in what context specifically, but I didn't mean to make too much out of it
( ... )
Excellent. I think this is the kind of illustrative example we need to address the question. Feel free to reference people here or pass it along elsewhere if it may be of use.
I'm also not sure where "justify" came into the discussion, or who used the term initially, but it's a word I've seen used in the wide-spread debate. To me, that language indicates the strong feelings associated with the idea of making someone "defend" their choices as an author, which I think is where a lot of the hurt and suspicion is coming into play.
I'm also not sure where "justify" came into the discussion,
If a story receives a "5" in any of these areas, you will need to demonstrate it is eligible for the awards.
Demonstrate is so very close to justify or defend.. I understand -- it has to go past the review panel. It doesn't mean it needs a twenty-page legal brief defending it. it just sounded that way.
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1. I agree in principle with a rating system and with certain types of stories not being eligible.
2. I disagree with a system by which stories rated 5 - and these stories only - have to be defended by the author upfront. This is unfair, because peope are trusted to correctly rate stories 1-4, but not 5. It is also unnecessary, because since presumbaly all 5 rated stories now have to go to a panel anyway, they might as well go to that panel without the author having to write an essay on them first.
3. I can understand that the rating system itself can not be changed at this point, since that would require changes to the website. But I don't see why the requirement to defend the story upfront cannot simply be dropped.
4. Personally, I find the rating system as it has been posted now confusing and inconsistent. Especially the prase "even an adult might find upsetting" is extremely vague since different people find different things upsetting, depending on their personal
Reply
I'm trying not to discuss what should be changed now, for the reasons I've given several times. I have saved this email and will keep them in mind when we have our discussion in September.
There was one suggestion you made, and I want to explain why we can't just make that change for 2012. You said:
3. I can understand that the rating system itself can not be changed at this point, since that would require changes to the website. But I don't see why the requirement to defend the story upfront cannot simply be dropped.Let's say we did that. We still have the requirement that certain types of content (graphic sex, graphic violence, etc.) aren't eligible for the MEFAs. And we're in exactly the same situation we were in 2011. I still have that huge question of what to do if I find out a story isn't eligible, but find out very late in the awards. Do I let it compete even though it's ineligible? Or do we set up some kind of deadline and don't pull stories after that date for any reason? Both of those are pretty big policy ( ... )
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What I'll probably do for longer stories is ask to have a few chapters you want the panel to focus on, and also offer to pass along any other information or concerns the author has. But that last part will be optional. for shorter stories I can just tell the ratings panel to look at this story, without going to the author for more information first.
Reply
I am not asking this for myself since I will not be participating due to personal reasons, but for those authors who do write stories that possibly could fall under the category 5.
Reply
Right now, if your story has a "5" in any area I will look to see if it's hosted at one of the archives that let you skip the ratings panel. If it is, I'll go ahead and finalize it. If it's not, then I would email you as the author and ask for a few pieces of information, most importantly the specific scenes that you want the panel to look at. I also give the author the opportunity to explain the context (what's going on before and after a scene), since the panel usually needs to know that. I think I ask for some other things, but those other things aren't really crucial ( ... )
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I do believe that if you lessen this, many folks who are upset about this will feel less censored.
Thanks!
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It certainly wasn't anything conspiratorial, as your "Star Chamber hearing" language suggests (at least to me; I do hope I'm not reading too much into it) - just several very busy people trying their best to avoid having a bad situation repeat itself.
Reply
I understood what you said when you have repeated it did not seem like a change to you but you should have known better. It is a change. The words I have used over and over are that it contains within it elements which cause a chilling effect which did not exist in the old somewhat vaguer guidelines and practices.
The whole mess particularly placed me in an awkward position because I promoted the MEFAs to people I felt were excellent writers, but who had always felt less welcomed by the MEFAs. I was largely successful in bringing in some more representative examples of the best work within the fandom. Now I feel like a jerk. And like I betrayed those I taunted for self-isolation.
Reply
Reply
Which probably gets to the heart of my feelings on this issue: This is a fandom of adults. I don't think I know a single person in fandom under 18 anymore. This isn't Twilight or even Harry Potter where a significant contingent of participants are under the age of majority. It feels a bit absurd, given this, to read comments up-thread from mine discussing how to handle presenting, say, a 20-chapter story of 100,000 words that contains a single graphic sex scene. Rather than debating how best to present this story to the ratings folks, I ask why we are even considering the idea that this story cannot compete. With topics like bigotry and wartime violence that one can see on the evening news earning a 5, I suddenly feel like many of my stories that have been nominated for, competed in, and won MEFAs probably never should have been eligible at all ( ... )
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(The comment has been removed)
Would the italicized section be sufficient to meet the "description" requirement in an entry that so many are concerned to see, or would the analysis of *why* that particular scene is necessary be needed as well?
The Ratings Panel would receive an email saying, essentially:
I'd like to check the eligibility of my short story "The Dark One," posted on Open Scrolls Archive, where it is rated as Adult for Implied Sex; Angst; Discussion of War-time Violence, including the death/dismemberment of an infant; and Disturbing Imagery.
(LINK)
Thanks for your help,
Neu
STOP: TRIGGERS BELOW. Proceed cautiously.The situation that worried me is when a hopeless old grandmother ( ... )
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I'm also not sure where "justify" came into the discussion, or who used the term initially, but it's a word I've seen used in the wide-spread debate. To me, that language indicates the strong feelings associated with the idea of making someone "defend" their choices as an author, which I think is where a lot of the hurt and suspicion is coming into play.
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If a story receives a "5" in any of these areas, you will need to demonstrate it is eligible for the awards.
Demonstrate is so very close to justify or defend.. I understand -- it has to go past the review panel. It doesn't mean it needs a twenty-page legal brief defending it. it just sounded that way.
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