Sad things

[marag]

I've been searching for something to say about the man who walked into a Tennessee UU church and shot people. Honestly, I think I can't say it any better than artaxastra here (although she wrote it before it became clear that she was right about why he did it).

artaxastra says (in part): And yet all the time I see on LJ people saying things "Coming out is no big deal

Comments

[samgirl]

My DH is from WV. He is a normal human being with a live and let live belief but the people in his hometown are not. My MIL (also uncharacteristically liberal) has a friend whose son recently came out. The friend is now wishing her son would move out of state so that she doesn't have to suffer the humiliation. ::eye roll::

And I'm from small town Ohio. Being openly gay is NOT acceptable there.

I'm astounded by the horrors that people today do to one another for the stupidest reasons. Not that there is a good reason in existence...

[marag]

My sister's hubby is also from WV and similarly, is very live and let live. His parents are lovely, although I don't know how liberal they are!

I cannot imagine living in a place where being openly gay is not acceptable. I grew up in Columbia, MD, a planned community started by hippies. (Well, not quite, but the principles are similar.) The other place I spent a lot of time as a kid was New York City (and my cousins and I used to hang in Greenwich Village). The only place I've lived other than Maryland is Los Angeles.

::shakes head:: I literally *cannot* imagine what it's like. It's beyond my experience.

[mofic]

I cannot imagine living in a place where being openly gay is not acceptable.But acceptable to whom? There's certainly plenty of anti-gay feeling in NYC and plenty of people who suffer from discrimination. Gay bashing in Greenwich Village is pretty common, for example, as it is in the other gay meccas (I think we may be the only minority in this country that has the people who hate us come to *our* places to beat us up). Or, for another example, in choosing an elementary school for my kids I had to deal with a school board resolution (in supposedly progressive Park Slope) that said that public schools should teach tolerance *except* towards gay and lesbian people

[mofic]

I lived in a blue state when I came out and I still lost my family ::shrug::. I've lost jobs since, had other consequences. Coming out is serious business and the costs/risks are often obvious, but being closeted is also serious business and the costs/risks are profound and often hidden. Both choices are a big deal.

But really, crazy people kill people for all sorts of (non)reasons. In this church the crazy person killed people appreantly because he hated gay people and liberals. In another church last December, a crazy person killed people who were decidedly not liberal and were very anti-gay. It's terribly sad, but it doesn't (to me, anyway) say anything about the general risk in this country of being a gay person or a liberal.

[marag]

Oh yes, there's no question that crazy people do things for crazy reasons. ::sigh::

[penknife]

I don't think there is such a thing as the general risk in this country of being a gay person or a liberal. The physical danger faced by LGBT people or people thought to be LGBT in some places in the country is vastly different than in other places in the country. The risk of employment discrimination exists everywhere, but is very different in states that have employment nondiscrimination laws versus states that don't

[mofic]

I think I agree with about half of what you say. I do agree that physical danger is different in different places (but I think it's actually greater in some supposedly liberal places than in some conservative ones). Still, when I look at the two church shootings in this country in the past few months, and I hesitate to draw the broad conclusions about the political climate from one of them that I thought were implied in this post. Perhaps I'm just misunderstanding, though.

I do think it's worth talking a lot about perceived risks and benefits of coming out and perceived risks and benefits of the closet. I do think that being openly gay is a risky thing to do - for ourselves and for our children. I think that being closeted is often riskier - for ourselves and for our children. I think much of decision making in life is risk/benefit analysis in the absence of clear information.

[ladyelaine]

Possibly the sentiment expressed by "It's not a big deal" is kinda the sentiment of "It shouldn't be a big deal."

[marag]

::nods:: Yes, I suspect that a lot of folks mean that, but it's definitely a case where it's good to choose your words carefully.

I do think, though, that there is a segment of fandom (and elsewhere) that really thinks that everyone lives in a friendly blue state community filled with loving hippies. And they need to get educated.

[ladyelaine]

It's the same sort of ignorance that leads friendly red-state conservatives to think eveyrone else believes in God, thinks homosexuality is a perversion, and sees liberals as somewhere between naive and dangerous.

[mofic]

I think it's very important to listen to people with vastly different world views. It's so easy to think you're in the majority if you only talk to people who think like you.

The fascinating thing about homophobia, though (as opposed to many other forms of bigotry) is that it tends to dissolve when people know someone who is gay or lesbian. Repeatedly, over decades, the only constant in polls on equal rights for lesbians and gay men is that someone is much more likely to be in favor if s/he answers the question "Do you know any lesbians or gay men personally?" affirmatively than if s/he says "no". And, the thing is, everyone knows gay men and lesbians personally but they don't necessarily know it.

::pause:: I think maybe I should stop commenting here and make a post of my own.

[viewoftheworld]

Having attended that church (all be it 25 years ago) I have to say the saddest thing is if the guy had come in and said he was out of work and needed help they'd welcomed him and done all they could to help him.

Not that the actions of a crazy man ever make sense but it wasn't just the church welcoming and supporting gays. His ex-wife attended that church too I think that's in this article if not then one of the many in the local paper there. He also ranted against Christianity.All that motivated him to pick TVUU as the target of his violent rage. As with the actions of the criminally insane there is never one pat answer as to why.

When I did attend TVUU the were as open and as welcoming of gays as they are today. If the man is convicted they will be the first ones to speak against a death sentence. That's the kind of people I encountered there, ones who really did all they could to hold to the 7 UU principles.

Sorry this is so long but because of my past connection to the church I've been trying to find out all I can.

[mofic]

This was very moving to read. I was also just so impressed with the courage and humanity of the people in the church - the man who died saving others, plus the people who stopped him. They didn't kill the gunman; they didn't beat him up; they stopped him and waited for the police. There would have been so many more people dead if not for their courage and quick thinking.

[marag]

::nods:: Yes, I've had to stop reading the articles, because I'm so hormonal that all I can do is cry. It sounds like a lovely community.

[viewoftheworld]

Yeah they are a great and diverse group of people. Atheists, pagans, Cherokee, Buddhist, Jews, Christians, Islam (actually when I was going on Saturday it was used as the mosque while the one used now was being built). It was there I met and made friends with one of several Holocaust survivors I've corresponded with over the years. She had me over to dinner several times during finals. The congregation is so open and welcoming of all ages, faiths, and so one. Being a student I enjoyed them very much unlike campus organization here I got to be with all ages

[sabra_n]

I live in a blue area in a blue state, with friends who are liberal. But not everybody lives someplace where being gay or bi or trans or whatever is no big deal.

Even in those areas...well. A good way to keep your perspective on people's potential for cruelty is to live in proximity to teenagers.