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Redundant archer questions
Okay guys, I have three weeks of vacation before college starts up again, and I decided to spend it making a definitive myth-busting archer thread on Basil Market. I need some help though with what topics to talk about, errors in my math, field testing, etc. Especially if you're an archer, please take some time and read through it, and tell me
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Arrow Blow can be comboed off of because it's faster. As soon as it hits, you can launch the next attack.
Arrow Blow compliments Iron Arrow, and to a lesser extent Arrow Bomb. If you are a Crossbowman and alternate Iron Arrow and Arrow Blow, launching Arrow Blow as soon as the 1st IA hit registers, you end up hitting the first monster twice before IA is even done hitting, and because of that you can alternate in a combo between the two and nothing can advance on you.
Even if you're just attacking 1 monster, it still makes sense to use the combo if you can. If you spam DS or AB, most monsters will still advance on you. If you use skill and timing and alternate AB and IA, things will end up FARTHER away than when you started shooting them.
For a Hunter, during the time that Stunner on Bomb isn't working, Arrow Blow allows you to hit the straggler that makes it through the pack. You can still use timing to do like IA/AB with Bomb/AB, but what it's useful for is waiting until the straggler goes through the pack, then you hit it with an AB and follow on Bomb.
This is impossible with DS because it's too slow.
AB is far more complimentary to a Crossbowman because of their slower speed, AB allows for faster firing. Also since a Crossbowman has a wider range of damage, it is more complimentary for bigger hits.
Another thing to keep in mind is that in your calculation (and the ones people always use), the WDEF of the monster is what's calculated first, not the damage.
All of these people who write these guides did it before they were facing stronger monsters with close to 1000 WD. That's why Strafe (or for a Bandit Savage Blow) can be so totally weak. It gets a defence penalty every time.
During the noob levels when all of these people wrote these "guides", they were hunting Wild Boars and Axe Stumps that have no defence anyway.
More proof they didn't know what they were talking about is KB of monsters. Some of them have 1000 KB. There's a point where Strafe doesn't do 1000 per arrow. So then what? You get run over? But AB will KB the monster. These people don't understand it because they didn't use it, and if they did use it, they didn't learn HOW to use it.
AB can always be part of your repitoire because it allows comboing into and out of it. As you increase in levels, it still is useful.
DS is better on a Hunter because it's not really set up to play the same style as a Crossbowman. Hunters have a more useful mob attack with Arrow Bomb, and if they stick to larger spawns of weaker stuff, DS can often kill everything with 1-hit. DS for a Crossbowman is painfully slow and isn't complimentary to the inherent slowness of Crossbowman.
Even though DS is slow, a Hunter's speed usually makes up for it. Even though a Hunter can't do the raw damage of a Crossbowman, the sheer speed of it's attacks mean that more weak hits still add up...they just don't always KB.
The great thing about a Hunter and DS is that they can still use AB, because at level 1 it's a useful attack and it will facilitate combos into Bomb.
On paper, DS is more powerful because of the ways bonuses are applied and the increased odds of generating a CS. In practise, once Mastery is at 19 and monsters get more and more WDEF, AB becomes better, especially for the Crossbowman.
I still wouldn't make a Hunter with AB and no DS because half of the reason to play a Hunter is the mob killing aspect of it.
There are also a few skills in the game that become somewhat obsolete, and DS is one of them. Strafe does essentially the same thing, so you won't often find a way to incorporate DS into your game when you have Strafe.
It also changes your build. If you make a Crossbowman without DS, you will need to get Strafe as soon as Mortal Blow is done. But if you are a Hunter...who is of course better with mobs, after you do Mortal Blow you can do Arrow Rain. You don't need Strafe immediately because you already have something that does essentially the same thing, DS.
In summary, it's a do what fits, not do what you like.
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SB never replaced Steal or DS for me, just as I didn't find Avenger replaced SB.
You can walk up to something and SB it and have it run into you, but it doesn't mean it's a good idea.
With no AB, you have no single, focused attack to rely on.
As I've said to you many times before, the choices you make in the first job often have long-lasting ramifications later on in the game.
If you're level 90 and have 95 STR and 365 DEX, the max damage you can do is 1200. If you do AB, the max it would do is 3100. If you got CS, the 1200 becomes 2400, and the max damage goes to 6240.
If you used DS, you'll still get that same 6k in damage, but it will never be more than 3k per hit.
Guess what?
KB for...
Gatekeeper: 5500
Thanatos: 5500
CB: 5000
Giant SV: 5300
Grim: 5500
Phantom Watch: 5000
And I'm getting bored, so let's skip a bit...
Deep Buffoon. That's the strongest thing you can KB with DS.
Because as I said, DS is tailored for a style of play where you kill lots of weaker stuff. If you have the Accuracy and the DEX and you can go after the big stuff, why not do it?
That's why they came up with the puppet. To make KB reasonable for Warrior they had to make it unreasonable for Bowman. But you don't need it if you can stop it, or if it dies you are still ok.
As far as the combo, I literally use it all of the time. Don't knock it until you try it. It does nothing but get better with time. It works the same as Final Attack except you control it. You can spam an attack and I could do combos manually and probably equal the same amount of shots as a spammer.
You lose nothing and gain extra attacks? There's something wrong with that???
I don't think you have any idea what the combos look like...as I said, I use the mob attack (Bomb or IA) even if I'm attacking one monster. If I can fire off IA, AB and DS/IA in the same time someone could spam 2 DS, I am doing WAY better.
Spamming the same attack slowly isn't the most powerful thing...getting the most hits in is. I'll let you in on a little Bowman secret: The key is to activate Critical Shot, and you do that by launching as many attacks as possible.
In summary, what you're saying isn't true or right. I can play this in my sleep...mobs don't work the way you say they do, especially with Bowman...1hKO is nice, but it's not really the point/forte of Bowman because it's more like a Warrior due to it's highly unstable damage.
I mean...your argument is valid for a mage, but it's completely invalid for a Bowman.
Again...Critical Shot.
If you are hunting stuff with DS like a Mage uses Claw...well, I guess when you 200+ per arrow on DS, go for those Horned Mushrooms.
But that's not how it works. Your damage is INCREDIBLY unstable because of CS. And if you get CS, you do more damage. If you are doing 1hKO you are training SLOWER because you're not reaching your FULL POTENTIAL...you are OVERKILLING about 60% of the time!
So you have the Accuracy, you go after tougher things. And since you can get bigger damage, it works better. You don't overkill, but...again, that's why you need a placeholder attack like AB, IA, Bomb or Strafe...it might take 2 hits to kill a big monster, it might take 5. But even if DOES take 5, I can get those 5 hits in in the time it takes you to do 2 hits PLUS I probably got some nice hits in on some other monsters, weakening them.
I have to say that as someone who loves Bowman, I'm very disappointed with what you've said thus far. You completely misalign what it is, and you're doing more harm than good because it doesn't sell the class very well.
People make bad Bowmen BECAUSE they think it's a matter of preference. It's not preference. It's PLANNING...you take AB because you cater to the unstable damage and hunt big things...you take DS because you can't hunt those things and are willing to eventually rely other things like Puppet.
This misinformation needs to stop. All of the guides are crap out there, and you're using Mage logic on a Bowman and that just doesn't work. Bowman is unique, Bowman has a lot of subtle nuances and quirks, and making it an issue of "do what you like and spam away" completely robs people of the magic they could discover playing it to it's strengths.
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Once you're in 3rd job, everything changes. Mortal Blow allows you to fire up close. Strafe works MUCH differently in close than DS, Arrow Rain works up close and PKB works 100% of the time for a Sniper at level 90, 98% of the time for a Ranger.
PKB also works VERY differently for Bow and Crossbow. With bow, you extend farther, with crossbow you don't. So often with Crossbow you will shoot something and then actually bash it with your next shot. With Crossbow you learn to anticipate that and follow with PKB.
With Bow it groups monsters better. Since it has a wider swing (front and bottom), you use it to set up groups to hit. With Crossbow you use it to keep stuff off of you.
The difference is that with Bow, things shouldn't get through and you won't get that double hit effect like you do with crossbow. You can still group monsters with Crossbow's PKB, but it's not as good as Bow's.
So I wouldn't say you want to neccessarily stay as FAR away as possible...as I said earlier here, it slows down your rate of fire. But you don't want to get too close and caught with a spawn behind you. But when you are able to fire point-blank, do it.
To say "if you can't KB the enemy, you shouldn't be"...you misunderstand. You don't play this like a Mage. You go after stronger stuff. PKB and natural KB give you a way to do it.
You have to understand, PKB is for grouping mobs to shoot and for getting things off you...like the Spirit Viking thing. If you get a spawn on you, do you let the other spawn get loose?
What if there's 8 of them? 9? How do you keep them back? Hopefully you can stun them, but remember, Bomb only hits 6...so guys get through. That's the point of AB. The one that gets through, you KB it. You have to visualise what I am saying here. Expand your mind. You can't stop big mobs with PKB and Bomb. They only hit so many monsters. The max you can do is 6. I can tell you from personal experience, I often am dealing with more than 6.
You cannot continuously fire alternately with DS. It doesn't work. Cannot be done. But it can with AB.
As far as people using puppets and ledges, that's fine...but if you believe what you say about efficiency, that's not efficient. Efficient is getting down in there and doing it.
It's so hard to type when I'm shaking my head in disbelief. KB is paramount. And if you didn't fight things...or only fought what you could KB, you'd never fight anything high level...and if you did, how efficient could you probably be?
The people who sit on the ledge and wait for Spirit Vikings...noobs. I'm not impressed. The people that jump in with PKB and generate the spawn as fast as they can...those are the people who get s**t done.
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As I've said time and time again, the choices you make early in the game affect you much later on. You don't hunt Zombies forever. There's nothing in the higher levels that doesn't have tens of thousands of HP and huge KB rates.
You're being like the guide people and thinking along the lines of being level 20. They don't take WDEF into account, they just say DS is this percentage and AB is that. You're not taking into account that you HAVE to fight strong stuff. It's patently false to say "The fact is, when you need these combos is when you are fighting monsters way to strong for you" because you have to fight them at some point.
Let me put this as simply as possible:
Saying "Fight 1hKO stuff" is not a valid response to "when you're a higher level, you need something to better fight strong monsters.
You keep responding with something akin to this:
Me: Make sure you take Lightning and Cold Beam first so you have an attack
You: But what about MP Increase and training on snails?
Me: WTF???
But -- the way you make it sound sometimes is that if you don't do this, get hit, you DIE. Which makes it sounds like a misconception -- if you are seriously that scared of getting hit, then you shouldn't be fighting it.
No, if you get hit, you don't SHOOT ANYMORE. And it's not until MUCH LATER that you can reliably get stuff off of you, and even still, the most you can ever stop is 6. You can't KB 9-10 things, you're screwed if you're making a group in a corner and something spawns on/behind you...even a maxed puppet will get eaten in seconds by a group that large....
You do not have to worry about those types of monsters until third job. Everything up until third job you should be able to OHKO/2HKO. Or else it's a horrible waste of EXP and time. There are a lot of variety of monsters that you CAN fight with OHKO.
Again, you're missing the original point, which is that Hunters and Crossbows have completely different styles. That is not efficient for when you're equipped with a Crossbow. With a Crossbow you're better off doing bigger stuff with calmer spawns because Crossbow isn't suited to what you're saying. Since DS is quick and good on 1hKO weak stuff, it's suited to the speed of a bow. It's not suited to the lack of speed of a crossbow. While AB is wasteful on a bow because it compounds the part of the attack that is slow and doesn't compliment the part that is fast, which is the inital shot and the travel in the air.
Just to use your Cargo example...go to Wild Cargo area. It's perfect for a Crossbowman. The IA will go all the way off the screen. But Arrow Bomb will not work as well since the mobs don't get as concentrated, and it's range is weak. Iron Arrow hits way longer than Bomb.
You've just proven my point of the difference in play/styles between Bowman and Crossbowman. I would not take a Crossbowman to Wraiths because the spawn is too great, and you can't fire from underneath without knocking them. With a Bow you can knock them easily on purpose and make really nice mobs to hit. But they're too fast for a Crossbowman. Crossbow loses out because the bottom, while flat, is still too heavy, even for IA and AB. Since IA can't shoot upwards, you're doubly screwed. But you can use a Hunter to spam Bomb and use PKB and totally clean up.
But that same Bomb would not work well on the Cargos/Cold Eyes, while IA+AB would.
For example, Cold Eye map (I forgot the name). There is definately more than 6 spawning at a time. It is GREAT exp with GREAt spawn. Flaw. You do all these combos, not to get hit -- this creative mix and match of moves. Yet, you get pwned by a huge geyser every few seconds as you collect spawns.
It makes all your work POINTLESS. Does it not?
The point...AGAIN...is not the damage, it's the interruption THEN the damage. When you can no longer shoot, that's when you're screwed.
Try again.
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Level 20: MP -15; Knock-back +40%, damage 200%, knock-back 6 enemies
Bow:
メトス 攻+90/移動+11：KB60％
Crossbow:
アーキアプテリスク 攻+93/移動+11：KB60％
What is 40+60?
What you and your friend don't understand is that it's like any other hit.
Let's say I have the Acc to shoot something, but my damage is low.
It says "Miss", but the monster still notices me and comes after me.
Then let's say I don't have the Acc to shoot something, and I shoot it and it says miss and the monster ignores me.
Do you see how it's partly based on damage and partly based on being able to hit?
Just because PKB works 100% of the time doesn't mean it will always KB the monster.
PKB at 100% is like having the proper ACCURACY to hit it, but when it fails it's because you didn't REGISTER the hit because it was too weak.
Your entire calculation of 60% would only be valid if you had one of those level 43 weapons with no KB...and they are MUCH worse.
And then we go back to AB...PKB is a last resort. AB keeps them off...if not, launch a puppet, if still no, spam PKB until something happens.
A good analogy for you...ever use SB and you get like 800, miss, 670, 730, miss whatever? Even though you hit, you're not registering.
Avoidability only matters if you can't hit it, otherwise it's the defence that matters. That's how it works. But if you don't max PKB and get a better weapon, you don't give yourself that best chance.
It's factually correct to say that with enough Acc I could hit a monster even if it says "Miss" because I hit it, but I didn't damage it. That's how you have to manage your misses, and when you get this concept, you'll understand how/why I use Disorder to save my ass.
As far as manipulating the maps, I'm sorry, but I've seen way too many people sitting there and spamming Arrow Rain on 1-2 guys when they could just go up there and take him out. That's not manipulating the map...that's what YOU'RE saying about people hunting stuff that's too strong for them!
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I have had this explained to me 2 ways.
The first (which is apparently incorrect) is like this...say a Bow has a KB rate of 50, if you maxed PKB it would have a PKB of 70, because 40% of 50 is 20, and 20+50 is 70. The problem is that 70 is an arbitrary number. 70 what?
The second is that a Bow's KB is it's base percentage. Remember, it says this:
"Level 20: MP -15; Knock-back +40%, damage 200%, knock-back 6 enemies"
PLUS 40%.
And if you go take a noob and a Composite Bow and bash 100 monsters, you will indeed knock back 20 of them. I know because when I was told #2, I went and tested it several times.
See, there are a lot of people out there that don't know how it works, don't know why it works/doesn't work and come up with a theory...but they refuse to deviate from it when shown other info.
I thought it was #1, but it turned out to be #2. That still leaves questions as to why it doesn't work...or what happens when you get level 100 weapons and the percentage is more than 100%? Will PKB eventually become obsolete due to weapon percentages? Does it work with a bonus like having 130% damage with DS?
In reality, 100% is the most you can possibly do. I'm not talking games...you can't "give 110%" since 100% is the most you can possibly give. But in MS you can do more than 100% because it starts to give bonuses.
Take your ex's char, put on a Composite Bow and then his normal Bow and go KB some really strong stuff. I know for a fact that the Composite one doesn't work better, because often the accounts I played were hacked and stripped when I got them, so I had to put whatever I could on them and maybe buy a Casa Crow or something for 490k. I can promise you that Bow/Crossbow...no matter...the lower-level weapons weren't even close to working the same. There isn't some hidden KB formula based on the fact you equip a bow, it's really based on the KB rate of the bow.
Try it yourself. It's miserable. I bet you that with a Composite Bow and PKB you would not KB a Spirit Viking in 20 tries.
So the thing you're left with is "why doesn't it always work?" to which your answer is "it's a 60% chance"...no, it's not a 60% chance or a 40% chance, because as you do tougher things that doesn't hold out.
All you're left with (which seems reasonable to me until someone wants to show me different...there are hackers that know these formulas. For example on the KMS/JMS bbs' right now, everyone is going nuts because they massively nerfed the player's WD formula for the new update when 4th job comes out) what we know for sure, which are misses.
And that goes back to my analogy earlier. You can hit something 100%, but it doesn't mean anything will happen to it. You're left with the "well if it hits, why doesn't it do anything?" problem...but you can hit an Iron Boar when you're level 28, get a CS on it and still get a 1 and a miss with DS, then the next shot get 2 100's and then get 2 misses.
It's not a lack of Acc, it's a lack of being able to punch through, but level does have something to do with it. There's a formula floating around out there that you need 1.8 extra points of Accuracy for every level you are below the monster. And as you know, even when you can hit a monster and are over it's level, SB will still give you "Miss" even though your Acc and/or level are more than enough.
That may not be exactly what is happening, but a lot of people on other services sure seem convinced of it.
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