Maybe I'm misunderstanding what happened there, but didn't you just say you could wipe away a person's soul? You had to have replaced it with something. [His voice is reasonable, calm--he's putting forth the effort to keep it that way. Maybe he really did misunderstand.]
In theory. We are who we are because that's how we're made. [Look, at this point? Genius honestly doesn't know what to believe about souls anymore. Stupid Sphere]
A theme of highly personal information broadcast universally to a sea of judging strangers?
If were--wait. Spark of life? Cloud, come on that's beyond cheesy.
Er-anyways, if we're talking about the way in which someone's brain is wired, then yeah. If you alter that, they don't think the same way so you can argue they aren't the same. But if we're talking about the spiritual...ghost..thing that's supposedly inside of us and departs when we're dead, I have no idea. I'm not a priest.
And that but I'm a litttttle more focused on the gross invasion of privacy that's going on.
Oh, I'm pretty damn sure that souls are real, but alright. If you alter the way someone thinks, sure that'll change their though processes. But then what's to stop us from being different people than we were? I'm sure the Tree had plenty of time to mess around with our brains.
Argh. Ok. First off, what type of 'soul' are talking about? The holy spirit, shaped like a dove kind? The kind that leave ghosts? Or are we talking about the way in which someone is built physically and psychologically? Because dragging theology into what is essentially a biology issue (which is btw I think what this memory was about, but like everyone else, I lack context) is like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Stupid.
Secondly, we ARE different people here. We're not the same people that we were when we had memories. I'm not saying we're utter strangers unto ourselves but we are a product of a mix of nurture and nature and this place? Gives the middle finger to both.
...and suddenly he's chatty >_>iattractmushiJanuary 26 2011, 01:24:48 UTC
Tch...
...physically. It's definitely not something 'spiritual'; I'm talking about the actual soul. If you removed it, someone would... stop functioning right. I guess it would vanish if you died, I don't know about that, and I think ghosts are something different, too.
Memories... are only part of it. As far as I can tell, we still have something of the same reactions as our past 'selves.' Take the people who come back--from what I've seen, they still act the same, even with their memories wiped again and a new name. [Okay, so he's basing this observation on Chivalry/Prince, who obviously had a few screws loose, but it's a sound observation nonetheless.] I'm not arguing we're exactly the same, of course experiences change people. But we're not different, either.
You're saying...remove someone's brain? Yeah they would stop functioning alright. They'd die.
[There is so much fail on this channel]
We have the same brains, the same neurological pathways and the same basic instincts. What we do with them is different. We are NOT the same, no matter how similar some people seem when they come back.
Not the brain, the soul. It's just as physical, and you wouldn't exactly die if you removed it... I don't think. Probably harder to remove, though.
Instincts, yeah, I'll agree with you on that one. But I still think souls have a lot to do with why we react to things the way we do. [A slight pause; he picked up on... something in Genius' voice. Maybe the emphasis he put on the word 'not'.] ...well, we can't know that for sure unless we had some way of comparing you to your past self. But you could be right.
[He's biting so hard on the comment about souls not existing. SO HARD]
If it's physical then why has no one ever seen a soul in Edensphere? Particularly when someone dies.
I'm not dominated by some unknown entity that's trapped in my chest. My heart doesn't grow two sizes bigger because I have friends here, because I helped kill zombies and saved people's lives instead of taking them! There is no destiny, nobody goes to heaven and if they do, this is the opposite of that. You wanna tell me that in a sphere of ninjas and mass murderers we're all the same because something mythical says so?
ffff, this thread is so effing amazingiattractmushiJanuary 26 2011, 02:14:02 UTC
Just because it's something that exists doesn't mean that everyone can see it. [Yes, because that logic sounds totally sane/reasonable/intelligent.
...and now there's a long pause; after a bit, Genius will hear the sound of Cloud lighting up.] People make their own fate, I know that. And even if you're the same person you were before, even if you still had your memories, that doesn't mean you're forced to repeat the same actions.
A soul makes you who you are. And that means you can choose your own path.
<333 Oh Cloud man_geniusJanuary 26 2011, 04:49:40 UTC
...Everyone? I've never met anyone who can see a soul. Name one person who can see one.
[Oh. Well if he's lighting up that probably means he's not about to hunt Genius down to duke it out. Cool]
So by your logic, if someone removed your soul, you wouldn't be Cloud anymore. They could remove your memories again, twist your neurons and flip all the switches they want but it's the soul that matters? That doesn't make biological sense. If I suffer horrific brain damage, I'm not going to be me anymore. I'm going to be a lump of drooling flesh. With your soul concept, that means my soul is doomed to be trapped in a useless body. That's terrifying!
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Nobody said anything about replacing souls.
[...oops. Maybe he shouldn't have made it known that he was on the radios right now.]
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[grumble grumble]
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There's a slight pause.] These memories really do seem to be developing a theme.
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A theme of highly personal information broadcast universally to a sea of judging strangers?
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Gods.
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Er-anyways, if we're talking about the way in which someone's brain is wired, then yeah. If you alter that, they don't think the same way so you can argue they aren't the same. But if we're talking about the spiritual...ghost..thing that's supposedly inside of us and departs when we're dead, I have no idea. I'm not a priest.
And that but I'm a litttttle more focused on the gross invasion of privacy that's going on.
Reply
Oh, I'm pretty damn sure that souls are real, but alright. If you alter the way someone thinks, sure that'll change their though processes. But then what's to stop us from being different people than we were? I'm sure the Tree had plenty of time to mess around with our brains.
Privacy is an illusion, here.
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Argh. Ok. First off, what type of 'soul' are talking about? The holy spirit, shaped like a dove kind? The kind that leave ghosts? Or are we talking about the way in which someone is built physically and psychologically? Because dragging theology into what is essentially a biology issue (which is btw I think what this memory was about, but like everyone else, I lack context) is like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Stupid.
Secondly, we ARE different people here. We're not the same people that we were when we had memories. I'm not saying we're utter strangers unto ourselves but we are a product of a mix of nurture and nature and this place? Gives the middle finger to both.
Yes well...yes.
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...physically. It's definitely not something 'spiritual'; I'm talking about the actual soul. If you removed it, someone would... stop functioning right. I guess it would vanish if you died, I don't know about that, and I think ghosts are something different, too.
Memories... are only part of it. As far as I can tell, we still have something of the same reactions as our past 'selves.' Take the people who come back--from what I've seen, they still act the same, even with their memories wiped again and a new name. [Okay, so he's basing this observation on Chivalry/Prince, who obviously had a few screws loose, but it's a sound observation nonetheless.] I'm not arguing we're exactly the same, of course experiences change people. But we're not different, either.
Reply
[There is so much fail on this channel]
We have the same brains, the same neurological pathways and the same basic instincts. What we do with them is different. We are NOT the same, no matter how similar some people seem when they come back.
[his entire sanity is based on that one hope]
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Instincts, yeah, I'll agree with you on that one. But I still think souls have a lot to do with why we react to things the way we do. [A slight pause; he picked up on... something in Genius' voice. Maybe the emphasis he put on the word 'not'.] ...well, we can't know that for sure unless we had some way of comparing you to your past self. But you could be right.
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If it's physical then why has no one ever seen a soul in Edensphere? Particularly when someone dies.
I'm not dominated by some unknown entity that's trapped in my chest. My heart doesn't grow two sizes bigger because I have friends here, because I helped kill zombies and saved people's lives instead of taking them! There is no destiny, nobody goes to heaven and if they do, this is the opposite of that. You wanna tell me that in a sphere of ninjas and mass murderers we're all the same because something mythical says so?
Reply
...and now there's a long pause; after a bit, Genius will hear the sound of Cloud lighting up.] People make their own fate, I know that. And even if you're the same person you were before, even if you still had your memories, that doesn't mean you're forced to repeat the same actions.
A soul makes you who you are. And that means you can choose your own path.
Reply
[Oh. Well if he's lighting up that probably means he's not about to hunt Genius down to duke it out. Cool]
So by your logic, if someone removed your soul, you wouldn't be Cloud anymore. They could remove your memories again, twist your neurons and flip all the switches they want but it's the soul that matters? That doesn't make biological sense. If I suffer horrific brain damage, I'm not going to be me anymore. I'm going to be a lump of drooling flesh. With your soul concept, that means my soul is doomed to be trapped in a useless body. That's terrifying!
Reply
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