Not to try to refute anything or spark debate, because that's not what I want, but, I gotta ask, if God is literally everywhere and everything, how can morality exist separate from Him? If God IS the universe, then wouldn't he be both good and evil and not be separate from them?
I guess this what you meant by the two ideas being at odds, but I just wonder how one can reconcile these two beliefs.
The only way I can see the reconcilation is that Good and evil don't actually exist, save for in the mind of man. Essentially, that there are no universal forces of good or evil, therefore God is separate from them in the same way He is separate from all things that don't exist because He is existence itself.
By abolishing tradition notions of good and evil, I'm begged me to question, what if evil is simply a force of non-existence? I mean, physical existence is refuted by anti-matter (theoretically), so what if evil is personification all forces of negative existence? If it is, then the only universal evil is destruction, but we know that not all destruction is "evil", such as natural death, natural forest fires that clear underbrush, etc.
Questions lead to more questions lead to more questions...until the end of time.
Morality is seperate from God, to me, because I believe that God knows good and evil, but has moved past anything close to human understanding and therefore accepts that good and evil are both necessary. While man, though he does evil, always feels bad for it happening. There is always (unless one happens to be deranged or sociopathic...even then perhaps these people go crazy from the guilt they feel?) a feeling of guilt over a wrongdoing no matter how slight.
I do not see the problem with good and evil existing seperate from God and man. As C.S. Lewis says, we cannot deny the existence of a Moral Law, because we have "inside information." We have the proof of it inside ourselves, and we can only assume that there is something that tells us "Hey, this is what you ought to do."
I believe that is God. But I also believe that He is behind the part of us that says "Hey, this is what you want to do. Isn't it so much better than what you ought to do?" Kind of playing Devil's Advocate (yes I catch the irony of using that phrase to describe God)
And it is not that He wants us to be good, or be evil. But he wants to leave it up to us and our willpower, and our feelings.
Free Will if you will.
But you could ask, why then be good at all? Well by the strictures of a loving, forgiving God, why be good? He will forgive anything, if you truly repent and feel guilty. So why not do evil on Saturday night, and expunge your guilt and gain forgiveness Sunday morning.
I believe the reason we feel compelled to do the right thing, is because it is so easy to do the wrong thing. And in our limited human perspective it is difficult to see the big picture. So when we see people get killed, or starving, we have to help because we innately feel we should do good.
And there is nothing wrong with that. We should act according to our nature, just as another animal, or rock, or tree can only act according to their nature.
And I know you were just continuing in the same vein, but I am not abolishing traditional notions of good and evil. Well, no more than we did our first day of philosophy. My teacher kept returning to the idea that morality was something seperate from everything, and I liked that idea and made it my own.
And actually what you describe there is the relationship between Order (creation) and Chaos from a book series I read. The interesting thing about this relationship is that the more order there was in the world the more chaos there was. But order could not be focused except by chaos. And what I mean by this (because focused chaos seems contrary) is that as a nation of Order wizards built a powerful fleet that dominated the oceans, another nation spawned very powerful Chaos focused into a single wizard at a time.
I can lend you those books if you need something to read. They are quite interesting.
Interesting, but I don't believe that mankind's nature is that of good. I've know lots of people in my life (not "known" as "in had relationships with" but known as "been associated with long enough to have an idea of what they're about"), and the majority of them wouldn't bat an eye at the suffering of others, or feel guilty about any of the things that they did that many people would label as evil.
Maybe it's a matter of different life experiences or different perspectives, but though I believe in the inherent goodness of every person, I believe that every person's nature is more inclined toward evil, as pessimistic or cynical as that may sound.
Hmmm, well if every person has an inherent sense of goodness (and this inherent sense to do right can override our natural instincts, something Lewis also talks about) but is by nature inclined towards evil, well good is a part of our nature as well.
It is our will that makes the difference and let's us choose.
I believe our reasoning for choosing good, or doing our best to choose a good path, is that there is already evil in the world, and we cannot see the sense in adding to it. Perhaps also the thought that if we were in the other person's shoes we would like whatever good deed we are doing for them to be done. (Wow that was a mouthful) I don't believe these are the only reasons.
Also, as an addendum, I don't believe God feels guilt over the evil that is done (and has therefore "transcended" it) because of how small and trivial it is to him. It is like when we are sick our immune system is fighting the virus, but we feel no guilt once we aren't sick anymore over the dead viral cells. We don't grieve when our skin cells flake off and wash down the drain.
And yes, this makes God seem very impersonal and callous, but I believe He is that at the same time He is personal and loving and caring.
I only read about half of this.... and I'm not getting involved.... just letting you know sociopaths don't go crazy from guilt, cause they are incapable of emotional feeling of any kind.
I guess this what you meant by the two ideas being at odds, but I just wonder how one can reconcile these two beliefs.
The only way I can see the reconcilation is that Good and evil don't actually exist, save for in the mind of man. Essentially, that there are no universal forces of good or evil, therefore God is separate from them in the same way He is separate from all things that don't exist because He is existence itself.
By abolishing tradition notions of good and evil, I'm begged me to question, what if evil is simply a force of non-existence? I mean, physical existence is refuted by anti-matter (theoretically), so what if evil is personification all forces of negative existence? If it is, then the only universal evil is destruction, but we know that not all destruction is "evil", such as natural death, natural forest fires that clear underbrush, etc.
Questions lead to more questions lead to more questions...until the end of time.
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I do not see the problem with good and evil existing seperate from God and man. As C.S. Lewis says, we cannot deny the existence of a Moral Law, because we have "inside information." We have the proof of it inside ourselves, and we can only assume that there is something that tells us "Hey, this is what you ought to do."
I believe that is God. But I also believe that He is behind the part of us that says "Hey, this is what you want to do. Isn't it so much better than what you ought to do?" Kind of playing Devil's Advocate (yes I catch the irony of using that phrase to describe God)
And it is not that He wants us to be good, or be evil. But he wants to leave it up to us and our willpower, and our feelings.
Free Will if you will.
But you could ask, why then be good at all? Well by the strictures of a loving, forgiving God, why be good? He will forgive anything, if you truly repent and feel guilty. So why not do evil on Saturday night, and expunge your guilt and gain forgiveness Sunday morning.
I believe the reason we feel compelled to do the right thing, is because it is so easy to do the wrong thing. And in our limited human perspective it is difficult to see the big picture. So when we see people get killed, or starving, we have to help because we innately feel we should do good.
And there is nothing wrong with that. We should act according to our nature, just as another animal, or rock, or tree can only act according to their nature.
And I know you were just continuing in the same vein, but I am not abolishing traditional notions of good and evil. Well, no more than we did our first day of philosophy. My teacher kept returning to the idea that morality was something seperate from everything, and I liked that idea and made it my own.
And actually what you describe there is the relationship between Order (creation) and Chaos from a book series I read. The interesting thing about this relationship is that the more order there was in the world the more chaos there was. But order could not be focused except by chaos. And what I mean by this (because focused chaos seems contrary) is that as a nation of Order wizards built a powerful fleet that dominated the oceans, another nation spawned very powerful Chaos focused into a single wizard at a time.
I can lend you those books if you need something to read. They are quite interesting.
Reply
Maybe it's a matter of different life experiences or different perspectives, but though I believe in the inherent goodness of every person, I believe that every person's nature is more inclined toward evil, as pessimistic or cynical as that may sound.
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It is our will that makes the difference and let's us choose.
I believe our reasoning for choosing good, or doing our best to choose a good path, is that there is already evil in the world, and we cannot see the sense in adding to it. Perhaps also the thought that if we were in the other person's shoes we would like whatever good deed we are doing for them to be done. (Wow that was a mouthful) I don't believe these are the only reasons.
Also, as an addendum, I don't believe God feels guilt over the evil that is done (and has therefore "transcended" it) because of how small and trivial it is to him. It is like when we are sick our immune system is fighting the virus, but we feel no guilt once we aren't sick anymore over the dead viral cells. We don't grieve when our skin cells flake off and wash down the drain.
And yes, this makes God seem very impersonal and callous, but I believe He is that at the same time He is personal and loving and caring.
More on this to come.
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