This was probably one of those "Long Time Coming" things.
I can't understand it.
I just... can't. On the whole, I pride myself on taking on a worldly view and striving to see from all perspectives, whether the difference lies in culture, society, politics, race, orientation, or what-have-you. The uniqueness of humanity is dazzling to me, and I adore discovering of differing points of views just so I may ( Read more... )
I just... can't. On the whole, I pride myself on taking on a worldly view and striving to see from all perspectives, whether the difference lies in culture, society, politics, race, orientation, or what-have-you. The uniqueness of humanity is dazzling to me, and I adore discovering of differing points of views just so I may ( Read more... )
When I first entered into my "Jesus Phase" as you call it, I was inundated with this sort of language which is a very sloppy way to convey a theological concept. I understand what your friend was trying to say, but words like hers kept me a prisoner of my own low self esteem and an abusive marriage for almost six years.
I haven't lost my faith. I have regained my sense of self-worth, and part of me believes that was the work of God. Another part of me is still pissed at Him, but we're working our shit out and for the most part, it's cool.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that, yes, the date of Christmas was deliberately chosen to allow pagan converts to continue their tradition of celebrating during the Winter Solstice. It's hard to say how many of those conversions were forced and how many joined of their own volition, but part of the ecclesiastical tradition of assimilating the customs of the culture they were trying to convert was a deliberate attempt to convert without force, so at least in early European Christendom (the inquisition not withstanding) there aren't too many records of forced conversion. Another thing to consider were the cultural shifts that were happening in the same time period which may have played an additional role in the numbers of European converts. I'm sure indirect societal pressure played a large part in the religious shift.
It's a faith built around the idea of human imperfection and Divine perfection and the reconciliation of the two. The emphasis on human failings gives dramatic impact to the story, but the whole thing would be meaningless if we actually believed humanity was worthless. In fact, we believe that we're all incredibly precious.
Ultimately, a Christian has to believe in original sin or there would be no need for substitutionary sacrifices to be made in payment for sins in order to make our souls? selves? capable of being in God's presence. Christians believe that God himself became flesh in order to serve as a sacrifice large enough to bridge that divide permanently.
I happen to believe it, but I struggle enough in my faith to know better than to tell others that they should as well. I'm not that smart, and I find things to fall down over all the time in my faith. I know there are probably contradictions and paradoxes I haven't even considered yet, but ultimately belief doesn't require proof, only willingness and desire to believe, and while my faith continues to be a source of comfort and guidance, I'll find desire enough within myself to believe.
I hope you understand, and don't think less of me.
Reply
Reply
When I first entered into my "Jesus Phase" as you call it, I was inundated with this sort of language which is a very sloppy way to convey a theological concept... words like hers kept me a prisoner of my own low self esteem...
Whilst reading her blog, I have stumbled upon many references to low self-image and self-esteem. Do you think, perhaps, that overly fervent belief and dependence on god/Jesus lends itself to those who suffer such things?
There is a teacher at my school who is currently struggling against her husband who up and left her and might ask for a divorce. And she is blaming herself, claiming that she wasn't a "Proverbs 31" wife. This perturbs me to no end. Would you agree?
I guess what I'm trying to say is that, yes, the date of Christmas was deliberately chosen to allow pagan converts to continue their tradition...
The whole Christmas thing was more an icing on the cake than anything else. It was just an illustration of one aspect of her deeply ingrained doctrine that appears all over the place. I just found the whole Christmas quote an ideal place to vent a little. However, I do agree with your historical analysis, but I would like to submit that hardly any Christian in our modern times recognizes the fact that Christianity formulated its major holidays to match those of non-Christian Europeans.
It's a faith built around the idea of human imperfection and Divine perfection and the reconciliation of the two... the whole thing would be meaningless if we actually believed humanity was worthless. In fact, we believe that we're all incredibly precious.
Ah, the reconciliation I can abstractly understand from your point of view, but the concept of Divine perfection was my initial undoing from my "Jesus Phase." It was the question of free will that turned me away from religious extremism, and I subscribe to the belief of a fallible divinity (or rather, a divinity that is fallible due to it's separation from the human plane, all the while parts of it exist within all of us through the force of the Universe itself... this is something akin to pandeism, I suppose).
As for the perspective on humanity, I am not so sure I agree that it would be meaningless if Christians believed themselves to be worthless. Is it not the feeling and the belief of worthlessness that sends a Christian seeking for the benevolence of the sacrifice to cleanse them and only then make them precious? Are not those humans who are "unsaved" considered un-precious until "saved?"
Reply
This is one of those areas where the church has failed women entirely. I would agree that the message of humility and repentance is easier to accept for those who already believe they have something to repent and humble themselves about. But there is a big difference between knowing your personal failings and working to overcome them and perceiving that everything you do and are are worthless.
As for Proverbs 31, I know very few women who could live up to those standards. I would know. I told myself that if I was more like her that my example would be enough to make my husband the kind of man I needed. What someone should have explained to me was that Proverbs 31 was as much a message to men as to women. The woman was capable of doing those things because her partner enabled her to do so, had confidence in her abilities and provided her the resources to carry out her business. I would venture that your friend, like myself, was having her legs cut out from under her by her helpmate and was still trying to run the marathon of her marriage. Marriages don't succeed or fail on the merits of one person alone.
The concept of God's holiness is central to Christianity because of the chasm created between God and man when sin entered the world. If God was fallable, if the capacity for goodness was available to people apart from God, man wouldn't need Him. Thus, no religion. I'm not saying that isn't a possibility. Just that there isn't a logical place for an imperfect God in the theology of Christianity.
As for the perspective on humanity, I am not so sure I agree that it would be meaningless if Christians believed themselves to be worthless. Is it not the feeling and the belief of worthlessness that sends a Christian seeking for the benevolence of the sacrifice to cleanse them and only then make them precious? Are not those humans who are "unsaved" considered un-precious until "saved?"
It isn't awareness of our own failings that drives us to God alone. It's the love of God for us and the prompting of His spirit that draws us to him. Our preciousness to him compels Him to seek us out in whatever state we're in to enable reconciliation. If he weren't precious to Him, why go to the trouble of enabling our communion with him? Like I said, not that it isn't possible, just that it wouldn't be Christianity. God loves the saved and unsaved alike.
Reply
Do you believe, then, in the tale of Adam and Eve verbatim? That the woman tempted the man and is to blame? That the world was created in seven days?
What if there was no original sin? Who is to say that even in such a case humanity would not still need this sacrifice of God's in order to be cleansed of, say, mortality and the errors of humanity that are naturally imbued in us?
And speaking of, if God created man and woman, did he not also create our minds? Our wants and desires? The sparks of rationality that dwell in our brains that lead us to want knowledge? And wasn't it God who planted those seeds of want AS WELL AS the Tree of Knowledge?
... Is the woman really to blame for original sin? Or is God?
I happen to believe it, but I struggle enough in my faith to know better than to tell others that they should as well.
Everyone struggles in their faith, or lack of, even. We are driven to question continually ourselves and our beliefs; it's what makes us human. However, you take a step above most others in that you will not circumvent another person's right to her own beliefs by forcing yourself upon someone else. THANK YOU for this.
I'm not that smart. Yes, you are.
... ultimately belief doesn't require proof, only willingness and desire to believe, and while my faith continues to be a source of comfort and guidance, I'll find desire enough within myself to believe.
Back in the days when I was struggling with the Free Will question that led me to where I stand today, I found a marvelous philosopher that I think you would appreciate at this point in life. His name is Soren Kierkegaard (a forerunner of Existentialism, if you can believe it), and his most famous contribution to the dialogue on god is his "Leap of Faith." Click the link and check it out. I think you would appreciate it very much!
I hope you understand, and don't think less of me.
I still stand by my statement from earlier - I do not think less of you at all simply because you took the Leap to Faith and your Leap led to Christianity and the beliefs of original sin and Jesus as God/the Son of God reborn on earth to serve as the final sacrifice. That is your choice to be given (because you have free will, at least in my book, according to my choice of theology).
I hope my response made sense, as I am inches away from hitting the hay! ♥
Reply
Do I believe in Adam and Eve, creation etc. verbatim? Not necessarily. Could it have happened as it was written? Sure. I mean, if you're already making the leap that an all powerful creator God exists, then you might as well consider that the world could have been created any way He chose. Including using evolution to get the job done. In fact if you read both creation accounts (which are not actually contradictory, but in fact, a Jewish literary convention) you read that the order in which God creates the world mirrors directly the order of evolution.
As for woman tempting man, I believe the story has taken on sexist connotations that weren't mean to be implied, and aren't particularly relevant except to highlight the very human instinct to pass the buck when something goes wrong. God calls them on their disobedience and Adam blames Eve, and Eve blames the serpent - and then goes on to blame God which I thought was kind of perfect.
The story might not be literal. But it's important because it lays the foundation of what is intrinsically wrong with us. In fact, "mortality and the errors of humanity that are naturally imbued in us" is almost a verbatim definition of the concept of original sin, meaning sin (imperfection, not trespass) that originates with us from birth, rather than the first sin itself.
And speaking of, if God created man and woman, did he not also create our minds? Our wants and desires? The sparks of rationality that dwell in our brains that lead us to want knowledge? And wasn't it God who planted those seeds of want AS WELL AS the Tree of Knowledge? Is the woman really to blame for original sin? Or is God?
Ha! That's what Eve said. Let's say you and your husband decide to have kids. Why are you going to have them? Because you want to continue your genetic line? Because you and your husband have that love to give? All of the above and then some? That's pretty much God's motivation to create humanity in a nutshell. But if you're going to create someone to love, you're going to want them to love you back. But God didn't want a bunch of Stepford people running around. So he gave us all free will to choose to love him or not. To chose to listen to him or not.
So in answer to is it Eve's fault or is it God's fault, the answer is, yes.
Free will and an omniscient God are lots of fun to play with in the theological sandbox, no? ;-)
Wanna know how it was explained to me that made the most sense?
In Hamlet, Did Ophelia go mad and drown herself because she was torn between the medieval precepts of her father's law and renaissance notions of romantic love and Hamlet's confirmation of her father's worst imaginings broke her fragile ego?
Or did she go mad and drown herself because Shakespeare needed an example of poetic irony to bring home the cost of Hamlet's vendetta against his uncle?
The answer is yes.
We always have free will, and God is not willing to circumvent our will in order to do His will. God works his will out through the imperfections and choices of humanity, whatever they may be. He knows what we will choose before we choose it, but that doesn't make it any less our choice. Just like I was born predisposed to addictive behavior because my parents were drunks, it doesn't mean I can't choose not to be an alcoholic. It's actually one of the themes I love most in the Bible.
Any of that make sense or am I being too obscure? I try not to get too wordy in theological discussions. I can barely understand philosophy, let alone try to explain it!
Reply
Like...
Why did God give us the "mortality and the errors of humanity that are naturally imbued in us" aka Original Sin in the first place? Being omniscient, didn't he know that Adam and Eve were going to be curious and disobey him? Did that give him the right to punish them afterward?
It's sort of like a parent setting up their child for failure just so the parent can punish the child.
AND! Just because someone messes up and disobeys someone else, doesn't mean that the someone doesn't love the someone else any more or any less. I rarely listened to what my parents had to say as I grew up, but I have always always loved them so much.
Why create an imperfect race if only to punish us and make us feel inferior. It's like god is subscribing to Machiavelli. We only ever fear or love god, and that makes religion extremely powerful over us. Not a settling thought.
And...
It is theoretically impossible to have free will with a god who is omniscient and omnipotent? You decide that you are going for a walk. Well, god (who knows everything that was, is and well be), already knew from the moment you were born (and even before!) that you would be going for that walk. And just as in your predisposition to addictive behavior, the omniscient god already knows if you are going to act on that predisposition.
It's a false free will, to be sure. You think that it's your choice, but he knew that you were going to make that choice anyhow. It's not a real choice, and that doesn't exactly endear me to the idea of an all-knowing, all-seeing god.
Like the child and parent again. The parent leaves a cookie sitting in reach of the child without saying or doing anything to indicate whether the child can have the cookie and then walks away. The child then has to decide whether or not it wants to take the cookie. And when it takes the cookie, the parent comes back and says "I knew you were going to take that cookie."
Yes, the theological sandbox is quite fun, my friend! (As is your Primordial Soup icon!)
I really hope this has been as enjoyable to you as it has been for me. For the record, your explanations have been extremely clarifying and refreshing to read. I hope that my points of view and thoughts have helped you in your continual search and solidification of your own faith.
Reply
Leave a comment