All About Advil and Other Interesting Things
I recently learned about the SPN anon meme threads regarding the Big Bangs for 2010. I have noted that LJ seems to be becoming a type of place where you get lambasted for the least opinion, so I can totally see why people want to remain anonymous, so they can be free to talk about stories as they see fit. But since I value the feedback I get from people on my stories so very much, I resisted taking a peek at what the anons would have to say about my big bang this year. But maybe that kind of feedback would have its own value; anons can say what they want how they want, and they don’t pull any punches. So I buckled and took a look.
There I found some comments about my use of Advil in my Big Bang this year that fascinated me. Overall, it made me aware that other people view taking Advil (and other pain meds) in a different light than I do. Like for example, the one poster says they only take one Advil, and no more. Another poster says they take 4 or 5 for cramps, and that the hospital gave them a very high dose as well. Another poster says they see people taking 2 or more at a time, and that they can’t imagine anyone even looking at the label.
So there's that idea, that people base what they think on what they're familiar with themselves. But also, I think that their opinions about how Advil (or other pain meds) are used in an SPN story are based on what they infer from what they've seen on the screen, which is different than my views on the subject. Then various posters say that neither Dean nor Sam would likely have a problem with taking large doses of Advil and various other types of pain meds based on observed behavior of John and his acquaintances.
Here’s my take. If you yourself take lots of pain meds or don’t read medication labels, then sure, you’re going to begin with that approach to your characters. But personally I’m a label reader. I believe them when the Advil label says "1 table every 4 to 6 hours," so that's what I've been taking all these years. I realize that’s quite pedantic of me, but I don’t like taking pills anyway, so when the label says, “only one,” I’m very glad to read that.
And it’s not for nothing that characters in my stories can’t swallow pills, especially Sam in the Sparta verse series. He can’t swallow them because I can’t! I have a little thingy that crushes the pills into powder and then I put it in pudding or something and eat it that way. It makes the pudding taste like crap, but at least I’m not upchucking anything expensive because I can't manage to get it down. And yes, when I was little, my mom took the time to chop up the aspirin and put it in a sugar sandwich. Why she didn’t buy chewable children’s or liquid pain meds for me, I’ll never know. Maybe it was the stone age and they didn’t have that stuff back then. So now you know where my pill-taking behavior comes from. : D
Although, recently, my doctor said, "sure, you can take two every 4 to 6 hours." So now I’ll take 2 if I’m really hurting. Otherwise, I prefer to not take them at all. It’s not that I’m super stoic or anything, it’s just that my body takes a while to process any meds, and so if I take something for cramps or a muscle relaxer? I’m out of it for days. Besides, prescription pain meds just make me loopy and nauseated; I’d rather drink some herbal tea or just wait it out.
(Quick note, in the story, I was talking about the pills that have 200 mg of ibuprofen in them, the kind that you can get off the shelf. I also realize that the dosage recommendations are to protect the company as much as they are to direct the consumer.)
With regards to Sam and Dean specifically, the posters state the following (material from anon meme is in italics):
Given the way Dean swills whiskey, I don't believe that he'd have a problem taking of Advil.
What?! A guy Dean's size could take a lot more than 2 Advil. The author can't mean prescription strength ibuprofen because that's not called advil, is it? And even if she was talking about the 800mg tablets, Dean could handle 2 no problem.
Minor injury and muscle pain has been a routine, life-long occurance for the Winchesters. imo, both Sam and Dean would likely be those guys who pop three or four in their mouth and probably never read the instruction in their lives (simply emmulating the behavior of their father and his acquaintances). I can't imagine Dean finding the use of Advil so non-routine that he has to be pressed to take a bigger dosage than 1.
Maybe I should have implied in my story that Dean would have refused the meds if Sam had tried to give him any more than 1 or 2. Or should I have had Sam give him 4 and Dean take them as if it were of no consequence? It’s too late to change it now (I believe that once it’s out there, it’s out there), but it sure is an interesting question for the future: how does a character view meds and how do they take them?
I agree that Dean and Sam could be the type of guys used to popping Advil like they’re candy, especially the Advil you can get over the counter. And while it might seem silly to have Sam prescribe only 2 tablets, especially as Dean’s in a great deal of pain, I think that even if Dean doesn’t read labels, Sam does. He’s more likely to be the rule follower on pain meds, at least until those rules get in the way of his taking care of Dean. And he's in charge of Dean's care at that point. So because of how I think about Advil and pain meds, and because I see Sam as a label reader and follower, his not following the rules and giving Dean two Advils was a sign of how much he cared; as in, for Dean, he’ll break the rules.
At the same time, I’ve seen Dean swilling whiskey for pain more often than I’ve seen him taking any meds for pain, so who’s to say that when Sam tries to give Dean Advil that Dean doesn’t balk and refuse the meds on account of he thinks that pain meds are for sissies? In BUABS, when Jo was digging that bullet out of Dean’s shoulder, he was slugging whiskey, and then she tossed some pain meds (or maybe they were antibiotics, I can’t remember) at him afterwards. He carried them with him as he walked out, but did he take them? Only Dean knows for sure.
Back to the topic. One OP in specific says:
…both Sam and Dean would likely be those guys who pop three or four in their mouth and probably never read the instruction in their lives (simply emmulating the behavior of their father and his acquaintances).
This statement intrigues me a great deal. I think that the OP means that Sam and Dean learned to pop pain pills from watching John and the people he knew, people who are, presumably, the kind of acquaintances who pop Advils like they are candy.
It’s not canon that we ever saw John taking pills of any kind, so we don’t know when the boys were growing up whether John popped pills like they were candy, or if he allowed the boys to do the same. Personally I think John’s a label reader, but then again, he might be the kind of tough dad to make them walk it off or something and not give the boys any meds for basic bumps and scrapes and sprains, but that’s just me, and I really don’t have anything to base that on. And, please note, neither do the OP’s, or any fan writer; we're all inferring what we think is the truth about so many little factoids like this.
And Dean was 26 before the boys found out there were other hunters out there, so with regards to John’s “acquaintances,” I’m not sure what kind of acquaintances the OP is talking about. Which people would have been this type of role models for the boys? Or is the OP implying that all hunters pop pills like they are candy, and thusly all the hunters Dean and Sam have met since they knew about hunters pop pills like candy? Or that the guys John worked with in the garage popped pills like they were candy? I find that a little hard to believe, especially since we know so little about that time frame, and almost nothing about the kind of guys John hung out with. Except to say that, of course, a lot them seem to be dead now.
Dean and Sam learned their attitudes about life from all over the place, besides, so there’s no telling where they got their attitudes and practices with regards to pain meds. So saying that they “learned to pop pain pills from John and the people he knew, people who are, presumably, the kind of acquaintances who pop Advils like they are candy” just doesn’t hold any weight because it can’t be validated in canon at all. There's no way we could pin that one down.
Plus, even if everyone Sam and Dean knew popped pills, it doesn’t mean that Sam and Dean would. In fact, they might just go against the grain on purpose. For example, my parents smoked, and for that very reason I don’t. So even if John and his pals popped pills, maybe Sam would be an extra careful pill taker, on purpose, just to make sure he wasn’t like John.
Anything’s possible in a fan story; you just have to be able to support it. The idea presented by the OP’s that Sam and Dean would take more Advil only holds water if, in the story itself, you specifically stated something that supplied the background information, because there’s no proof anywhere else. You’d have to say something like “Sam gave Dean 4 Advils because that’s the dosage Dad always gave them.” Or “Dean took the four pills Sam gave him and swallowed them with a gulp of water like Uncle Bobby had taught him.” That is, if you felt that John and the people he knew viewed pain meds that way.
But if you don’t believe that, then, of course, you would leave it out of the story. Either position is valid if you can support it in a story, I think, I just happen to prefer my way of looking at it. Maybe I could have been more clear and explained Sam’s thing about reading labels; in retrospect I could have, but maybe it would have dragged the story down. But it seemed self-evident to me that if Sam was reading the label and paying attention to the recommended dosage, it was because that’s what Sam does with medication, at least in my world.
Because we don’t have a lot to go on besides what’s on the screen, any position is subject to interpretation, although some are more supportable than others. So while I personally see Sam as an attentive label reader, I can see that the idea of a tough, wounded hunter popping four Advils and washing it down with whiskey, even though the label clearly states not to take with alcohol, would be appealing and SO DAMN COOL (Clint Eastwood anyone?). But it’s a total cliché that hero types like hunters (or cowboys you see in the movies) don’t read labels, and I think most of the set of people John knew were more sensible about meds (both prescription and non) than that. You’d have to be if you wanted to survive out there saving people and hunting supernatural things.
What about the people we know Sam and Dean knew? I think it’s safe to say that Sam and Dean knew Pastor Jim, Missouri, and Bobby from a young age. I personally think that the aforementioned acquaintances would be label readers too, they’d be the type to slow down and read the warnings on prescription bottles to realize that some antibiotics don’t mix well (or, in the parlance, are contraindicated) with anything containing vitamin C, or that too many Advils can cause liver damage. (Or is it kidney? I can never remember.)
For example, from what I saw of her, I can’t imagine Missouri suffering any fools gladly, and if she had Sam and Dean in her care at any point, she’d be making damn sure they weren’t messing with her before she gave them anything.
Pastor Jim seems a by the book kind of guy (did you see the way his guns were organized?) so I don’t see him going off the rails with pain meds either, though he might have been more lenient in handing them out. And actually, with only one ep, there’s no way of knowing so it’s all speculation.
And lastly, Bobby. Tough, irascible Bobby. Hardcore, sure, but maybe there’s a heart of butter in there, and he’s a soft touch for the wee boys and has children’s chewable aspirin on hand at all times. (Or he did, when they were wee.)
Of the hunters they eventually met, I think that Gordon was the kind of hunter who would just grin and bear it, rather than take any kind of medication, so no pill popping as far as I can see.
Ash? Um, yeah, he’d have something illegal nearby anyway, so Advil wouldn’t be on his shelf in the first place.
Jo and Ellen? They’d have everything they needed, but they’d be label followers too!
I could go on, but the fact is, We Simply Don’t Know. And we will never know and since there’s so little to go on in canon, I guess it all comes down to what I’d do in that situation. And so, because I’d read the labels on medicine bottles, so do my characters, unless there's a good reason for them not to, like if I were writing about Gordon or someone like him. Hunters, especially, seem to be the type of folks to have enough sense to do the same. And why wouldn’t they? Especially when their health was at stake?
Your mileage may vary.
http://www.advil.com/products/advil/tablet_label.asp
With Regards To Other Remarks
I found it irresistible to see what people had to say about my story when they could be invisible. I get the appeal of being invisible, I really do, and since I find their comments interesting, I thought I’d bring them here and follow up. Not that anyone has to respond of course, and not that I have any idea who they are. It’s a mystery!
There were some comments about the artwork (in italics):
Art by radishface. Um, sort of.
So where is the art? I'm kinda confused here.
Author has created both art & fanmix (with cover art) and linked to them. But then again, looks like the artist has no art ready, so.
Fan art for stories is the best part of the big bang, which is why I've always signed up. My artist communicated with me early on and then dropped out of sight for two months only to show up again at the last minute. So, sadly, there was no collaboration, there was no discussion, nothing fannish, or, frankly, fun. While I’m disappointed in the lack of communication or interaction between us, I did get art, which I appreciated and put in the story out of courtesy for her efforts. But there is no master art post where the art resides on radishface’s LJ, so if you want to leave feedback, you’ll have to get the info from her site and go from there.
And here was the feedback for the story itself (in italics):
I took a look at the Author's Note page first, and I have to say I'm impressed at the research... actually road tripping to see primary sources. Now I'm curious to read this, even if it ends up lulzy.
Research is my favorite thing and I might have taken it far too far this time around. But then, really, I always do. And it gives me the best excuse for roadtrips evar. Gosh, I’ve got to go to Texas because I’m writing a story! What could be a better excuse to miss some very boring family picnics over 4th of July weekend?
Art: The lack of an art masterpost or any way to find/feedback the BB art on the artist's LJs is confusing, but pictures -- mostly competent line-drawings, more character-sketches than highly realistic, and a closing watercolor-type piece that's nice but doesn't quite seem to fit -- by the BB artist are sprinkled in. As are lots of photos by the author. The location ones I liked, the ones of objects (beer, boots) could have been skipped.
See above for the explanation about the art. As to the photos, thanks for the feedback. I like the location ones better myself, but once I got going, it was kind of fun to find pics for the other items that Sam and Dean owned.
Fic: Worth reading. Roadtrip-fic, case-fic, first-time-fic. Briefly, hypothermia-fic.
Worth reading! Thank you, I appreciate that. I’d never known that there was such a thing as hypothermia-fic, but now I do.
Spare, smart-but-slow-on-the-uptake Sam-POV. I enjoyed this writer's anguishing-Dean-POV more (Blue Skies from Rain), but the story had enough other features that I liked it quite a bit.
Thank you, I’m glad you liked it. Personally, I like Dean’s angsting in Blue Skies as well, and I kind of missed it this time around, but I wanted to try a single pov story to see how it would go, and whether I could keep it strong. Part of my brain says that Dean’s story still wants to be told. I’m resisting.
Few typos here and there but nothing horrifically recurring, tense doesn't change for no reason, and POV stays consistent -- hallelujah! This writer uses weather and location as a metaphor, and though sometimes it's a bit heavy-handed overall she knows what she's doing. (Unlike too many of the other BBs this year, in comparison with, again, many of which this is very solid.)
Sorry about the typos. I think they breed while I’m not looking. And that statement, “She knows what she’s doing,” thanks for that. Head. Big. Swelled now. Can’t walk through doors. I’d like to think that I know what I’m doing, mostly anyways, but to have someone say it who I don’t know and can’t see, and who has nothing to gain? Fabulous. Almost better than sex.
Now for the all-important question: Who bottoms? Neither. Sorry nonnies, just handjobs and blowjobs -- Dean on the receiving end both times -- here. This story's not much with the porn, it's pretty much all about the emotions: co-dependency, love, denial.
I love this comment and I had no idea that it would be important to readers. I always figure that who bottoms and who tops depends on the needs of the story, but not that readers would have a preference. Do I have a preference? I don’t, actually, I just want them to be in character. I have preferences for sexual positions, if you can believe it, but I’m just happy reading porn, regardless of who takes it up the ass.
And then there was this…
Spoilers/summary:
Set several months after Heart, Sam hasn't gotten laid since and Dean thinks he needs it. Courtesy of beer and JD, Dean lends a helping hand to get Sammy ready to hit the bars and get a girl. Problem is, Sam liked Dean's helping hand too much. His brain knows it shouldn't, but his body liked what Dean did more than any girl and wants repeats.
When Dean gets hurt -- not badly, just enough for plot purposes -- Sam reciprocates for purely altruistic painkilling purposes but takes it one step further with a few seconds of blowjob. Trouble is, Dean gets pissed.
Throughout the fic it's obvious that Dean lets himself enjoy and want simple things -- food being especially important -- and takes good care of the things he values, but doesn't let himself want, let alone have, things he considers luxuries or not simple. Like Sam. Dean's life revolves around doing the job, making sure Sam has what he needs, and a few simple pleasures: food, getting laid, taking care of his car. Sam tries to give Dean what he thinks Dean wants, primarily not talking about things and, to make up for the angsty orgasms, getting him simple(r) things he might want. Cue misunderstandings.
The story takes them from Indiana to Arkansas to Texas to Colorado and finally back on the road to Indiana. The first few cases are easily resolved, only the last creature (a snow ghost) -- which can only be vanquished through The Power Of Love(tm), surprise surprise -- gives them trouble. Enter Dean, taking icicle-Sam back out of the creature's clutches with The Power Of Love(tm), and despite still barely talking about their emotions they work it out so there's another blowjob (and implications of more to come) before they drive off into the sunrise together.
Final words: Satisfyingly low on saccharine and over the top schmoop. There's some, but it's offset by pretty in-character bitching, repression, and stupidity during the Tender Moments scenes.
I loved reading this summary and mostly because it’s written by someone I don’t know who is telling the truth like they see it. It’s like seeing the story through a new pair of eyes, which is a huge turn on for me. Whoever wrote this wrote it like they not only read it, but that they GOT it. That they tuned in and enjoyed it. And because of the sophisticated style, that they know how to write summaries. Summaries are hard, I tell you, and I don’t like writing them myself, so kudos for this. I don’t even mind being poked fun at for using The Power of Love™ because yeah, that’s what Sam and Dean are all about and I ain’t ashamed to say it. And “icicle-Sam?” Perfect!
PS. Thanks all you anons, for bringing up a topic that was interesting to think about, and for giving me such honest feedback. It was fun! Even if you were all, well, rather invisible. : D