Thoughts about betrayal in the Buffyverse

[lostboy_lj]

To help with a new fic I'm writing, I've been doing a re-watch of both "Buffy" and "Angel" lately.  It has inspired a few random thoughts.  One of the thoughts that struck me is that the bad guys in the Buffyverse (and perhaps in all plays, films and TV shows) are largely marked by their instinct to betray. This is especially true amongst the show'

Comments

[norwie2010]

To help with a new fic I'm writing,

Sorry, i couldn't read on after that because of flailing and squeeing. :D

Ok.

I think there is even more to betrayal:

Giles betraying Buffy in "Helpless".
Willow and Xander betraying their respective love interests in S3.
Xander lying/betraying to Buffy in "Becoming".

Buffy betraying the gang in S3 up to "Revelations".

Secrets and lies and betrayal and trust are very prominent in BtVS, but with some noticeable differences: while lifted secrets often lead to short-term explosions (and long-term trust), outright betrayal leads to downfall (and sometimes uplifting to a new level: Andrew, Spike, Faith).

Also: Don't (re-)watch AtS. ;-)

[lostboy_lj]

Secrets and lies and betrayal and trust are very prominent in BtVS, but with some noticeable differences: while lifted secrets often lead to short-term explosions (and long-term trust), outright betrayal leads to downfall (and sometimes uplifting to a new level: Andrew, Spike, Faith).

Yes! I was reading the rest of your note, and was thinking the exact same thing. There are secrets, lies and minor "betrayals" littered throughout the series, and they include human characters as well as Big Bads. But you've hit upon the key difference of outcomes. The outright betrayals have different motivations, and lead to different results.

What I thought was cool about BtVS was that doesn't the mistake of presenting humans as infallible moral paragons and monsters as merely people who do bad things. The difference is that the monsters don't just "do" evil, they "are" evil. Their motivations are purely selfish and their goals are purely destructive, and they never learn how to be better people because they don't want to be better people.

[lostboy_lj]

Actually, just to tug out the thought a little more, a good benchmark for evil might be Angelus - who is often held up as the most evil of all vampires. After all, it is Angelus, not "Angel" who betrays of Buffy in the wake of their lovemaking. If he wanted to, he could have very easily and quickly murdered Buffy, since she was unaware he'd been awakened. That would have been the practical thing to do, but he decided to torment her first instead, the way he tormented and tortured Drusilla before turning her

[norwie2010]

It is a shame i'm really not all that interested in the character "Angel" - "Angelus", on the other hand.... ;-)

Maybe, in the end, Angel(us) found his master in the First, which equally delighted in the torment for torment's sake.

It is with the character of Angel, that i feel BtVS and AtS loose common ground: While the cast of BtVS ultimately commit entirely human lies they also grow through them. The cast of AtS is ultimately doomed by the dichotomy of Angel/us, the tormentor and the tormented in the same mind. While all the little lies on BtVS add up to human behaviour and - when confronted - allow the characters to grow, on AtS all the little lies add up to complete doom. Because: Angelus, biting (team) Angel's ass through the backdoor, tormenting for torment's sake.

[local_max]

As has been pointed out by 2maggie2 before, Wood's betrayal is actually much worse than Giles', because while he has personal, understandable reasons for vengeance, he also has good reason to suspect that the First *wants* him to get his revenge on Spike, for some reason. His never telling anyone (before he tells Faith anyway) that the First was the one who told him that Spike was the one who killed his mother is, to me, a bigger betrayal than anything else. Giles is wrong, but he has good reason to believe that killing Spike will hurt the First more than help it

[lostboy_lj]

Wood's betrayal is actually much worse than Giles'

Oh definitely. I agree with that. Robin's crime is very similar to Andrew's, in that they allowed themselves to become willing tools of The First because of their own personal weaknesses (which I think is why they do the same bit with Andrew's eyes in his fake "Storytelling" flashback that they did with Robin's eyes when he was standing over the seal). I guess what I'm saying is that neither Robin nor Andrew does what he does because they "are" evil, but because they are weak, and therefore more likely to do certain evil deeds.

His never telling anyone (before he tells Faith anyway) that the First was the one who told him that Spike was the one who killed his mother is, to me, a bigger betrayal than anything else.Hmmm. I didn't remember the scene (in "Touched") quite this way. I just went back and watched it, and Robin does not seem to be implying to me that he got originally the information from the First - after all, he knew exactly who Spike was and that he'd murdered his

[local_max]

Oh: I agree that Robin wasn't telling Faith about his motivations re: Spike. I mostly just referenced that scene to note that he does, eventually, at least tell someone that the First talked to him, which is more than he did up until that point. But yes, agreed about Faith, though ultimately I think the Mayor is a different situation: it is perfectly reasonable to assume, in Faith's case, that the First is trying to double-bluff her into doubting herself. Arguably the First could have been trying to double-bluff Wood, too, but I think that's a bigger leap.

[lostboy_lj]

I mostly just referenced that scene to note that he does, eventually, at least tell someone that the First talked to him, which is more than he did up until that point.

Oh yeah, totally. I guess what I was saying is that the way The First corrupted Robin was the same M.O. it used for everyone else (except, notably, for Spike, who it needs to use a more abstract trigger for).

it is perfectly reasonable to assume, in Faith's case, that the First is trying to double-bluff her into doubting herself.I suppose so, but the only problem with that is that Faith leads her team directly into the First's trap, so it appears that having Faith lead the team plays right into the First's hands. A doubting Faith might have sought out Buffy instead of leading the team, which Faith tells Robin she's been considering doing ("The First is telling me to worry about her, and I just wish she was here. In a couple hours, I'm gonna lead these girls into some serious crap, and she's the only one

[readerjane]

Lovely thoughts.

Some of my favorite stories have parallels.

In Lois Bujold's original Vorkosigan series, Cordelia Vorkosigan creates a trustworthy man out of the damaged and monstrous Bothari by trusting him, much the same way Buffy creates a trustworthy Spike by trusting him.

In lightgetsin's Dresden Files fic Cross, obsessed Mobster John Marcone thinks, "Dresden had inspired a lot of [loyalty], in a number of surprising places. John could respect that, as someone who frequently needed to do the same. He had made a study of it, before and during his military service, and he’d learned that the trick was to do what you said you were going to do, it was that simple. Dresden managed it without ever quite meaning to, the way he did a lot of things, but his methods appeared to be essentially the same. Only on him, people called it integrity."

To do what you say and say what you do -- even a villain can manage that. And the ones who do manage it are the most compelling.

[lostboy_lj]

To do what you say and say what you do -- even a villain can manage that. And the ones who do manage it are the most compelling.

Yes, absolutely. The idea of a "noble" villain is an old and popular one, for sure. And the opponents with a sense of honor are usually the ones who end up joining forces with the good guys at some point, either because they despise the trickster villains or because they have a change of heart (like the noble villain Darth Vader has at the end of "Return of the Jedi").

I think the thing with trusting bad guys is that it takes an extraordinarily heroic amount of courage (as compared to, say, trusting your friends, or trusting a stranger). So the trust game between Buffy and Spike is also showing us another kind of heroism. The risk is great, because people will die if your trust was misplaced. In Season 7, the risks become incredibly great, especially when it comes to trusting Anya and Spike.