Less than ten minutes and not very fast; they won't make more than a mile or two - if that much - and the horse will quite likely be permanently crippled, if not dead.
Here is a simple experiment you can try at home: first run a half-mile as fast as you can, and time your pace. The next day, put on a 75-lb. pack and run the same course. Are you as fast? How are your lungs, feet, knees and ankles? Suppose you take a fall while carrying all that weight? A horse can't run at its normal pace while carrying half its own weight either.
Note that 1000 lbs. is average for a horse, so a 200-lb. man stark naked would already be 20% of its weight. A modern soldier's kit and weaponry weighs about 70 lbs, and does not include armor. You're asking this poor horse to canter with 600 lbs. on its back? This old equestrienne is crying already
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"it's basically a case of "Unexpected high-stress confrontation, Character A swings Character B up onto the horse with him, they hightail it out of town while the antagonists run off to saddle their own horses and pursue the heroes."
This can't be done for similar reasons to why Batman can't really catch himself and another person by grabbing a rope while falling.
"the mountains that they are going to have to traverse to reach the border are not the kind of place you want to be walking around without weapons. They are indeed going to ditch some of their armor when they set off on foot"Are they ditching their helms and swords? Helms are expensive, and essential in battle (regardless of what assorted film-makers may think) but they're quite heavy. The logistics of carrying water are a little different without modern materials; in any case the water is still as heavy as ever
( ... )
Yes, I know what I wrote. I was trying to say it quickly (namely because it's not actually relevant to the question I asked), rather than write out the entire scene as it appears in the story. I'm aware that it can't be done, which is why I have no intention of writing it that way
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"Ten miles a day is not a superhuman feat, I promise."
Ten miles a day off-trail through the Wyoming high country without a map or compass, and without previous knowledge of the way? I grant you, one might do ten miles worth of distance a day (and hundreds of feet of cumulative elevation gain and loss) but that doesn't mean one is ten miles closer to one's goal. Spring snow-melt means bad river crossings, and wet clothes mean probable hypothermia, both of which would cause delay.
Note, these are not objections; I'm a great believer in putting characters to the severest tests in all the ways. Yours could have to kill their good horse, or abandon her broken to a grim fate. They could have to put in 20 miles of traversing and backtracking around cliffs they can't climb and streams they can't cross in order to make 10 miles' progress - assuming they don't get lost, which is a pretty big assumption when they have nothing but the sun and stars to guide them.
Indeed, navigating without a map and compass and with no previous knowledge of the way can be tricky (understatement). It is terribly convenient for our heroes, therefore, that the border is the crest of the mountain range (which means that the route is simple: go uphill) and that they are traveling largely above treeline (which means they can see where they're going). Obviously that's an oversimplification; my point is, I've thought this through. I've done a lot (a LOT) of backpacking in my life. I'm a certified Wilderness First Responder. At one point I was an on-call volunteer for a mountain rescue service. I didn't ask about that part of the story, because I'm quite confident in my ability to realistically write characters who are traveling through the mountains
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Well, that is terribly convenient for them, indeed. Naturally, you can set up conditions in your story however you want. I don't know the Winds; perhaps Shoshone is a great deal more forgiving to the unprepared than Bighorn or Olympic National Forest are.
"As I said in my question, I'm certainly not envisioning a delicate little Arabian here, but some sort of draft horse cross like those that were actually used as warhorses."
What you actually said was " and while the horse is no delicate little racehorse it's not a giant draft horse either." And as I said in my initial reply, an average horse weighs about 1000 lbs. A horse can carry 20% of its weight without strain, but even so, can only safely sustain a gallop for about 20 minutes - less for the heavier breeds. 35% of its weight is a strain, but do-able. Ergo, if you want a horse that can canter with two full-grown men in armor, you'll need one that weighs at least 1400 lbs.
"a comparison between the level of exertion that is brutal but survivable, and the level that is likely to
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It’s not, clearly, but neither does it even come close to covering the whole of the range. There are some pretty vast areas that are almost totally treeless.
Yep. Because it is indeed neither a delicate little racehorse, nor a giant draft horse. It’s a horse like the ones that my research informed me were probably used as warhorses, i.e. warmbloods like this and this. I thought my phrasing indicated a horse midway between something like Thoroughbred and something like a Percheron, but then we’ve already established that I know very little about horses, so apparently I should have been more specific (hence why I rephrased myself above). Happily, further research indicates that 1400 pounds is about right for a horse like the one I’m picturing, so I guess a short “canter away from the confrontation” is back on the table.
Have your characters dismount before the horse is totally blown (perhaps they see a good place to hide, and send the horse running down the road alone to lure the pursuit?) That’s what I’ve been picturing. I’d just
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Ok, I know this is a late post, but I'm curious if you really understand what you're saying regarding the differences in the size of those horses? Percherons - originally bred to be war horses and what you're listing as the largest - range from 15 to 19 hands and a weight of 1,100 to 2,600 pounds. Friesians range from 15 to 17 hands and weigh in around 1,450 pounds. And Holsteiners - commonly used as a jumping breed, not an endurance one - are 16 to 17 hands, weighing in under 1,500 pounds. A Thoroughbred in comparison ranges from 15 to 17 hands and can weigh between 1,000 and 1,500 pounds. A hand is about 4 inches and is measured to the shoulder. Meaning the smallest off all those breeds is five feet tall. At the shoulder. And warmbloods like these are generally around 32" across their back. They're all big. The difference is in how much they can carry. There have been studies done that lend credence to the theory that horses can comfortably carry weights up to around 20% of their body weight. 25% and up and they start showing
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No, I don’t know a lot about horses, though I’ve tried to remedy at least a bit of my ignorance with research (and with this post). Everything I’ve read thus far indicates that warmblood breeds like Frisians and Holsteiners are the closest modern equivalent medieval destriers/warhorses, so that’s what I went with as an example. Essentially, I’m picturing a horse like you and elenbarathi have described: big, muscular, about 1500 pounds, perhaps slightly more agile than a truly enormous draft horse but unlikely to be breaking any speed records, either. If I’ve gotten something wrong there, please let me know.
All of that is good info. Thank you! When you say You're looking at a dead or irreparably injured animal at the end of this. And it likely will take much less than an hour to happen - is five minutes feasible? Based on responses I seem to have done a poor job conveying it, but the fact that they absolutely WILL need to abandon the horse and go on foot is very much a plot point; I’m certainly not expecting them to ride for an hour
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It’s not, clearly, but nor does it (or the Bridger, for that matter) begin to cover the entirety of the range. Since I’ve already defined the particular region where this part of the story takes place as being remarkably treeless (and, would you know it, planned out a society and economy that is likely to exist in such an environment - it’s almost like I’m the sort of person who puts thought and research into my writing. And comes on Little Details, for questions on which I recognize that my own knowledge is lacking), I didn’t suddenly feel the need to plant a forest in the way of my protagonists’ escape
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No. Play 'Tone Police' with somebody else. I have lost interest in trying to help a person who takes offense at every turn.
There is no data on "how long/far/fast a horse can likely go with two armored riders on its back before being totally blown or dead" because there is no way to answer such an imprecise question. How long/far/fast can an 'average large human' run with two full back-packs?
A final word of advice: before you get on your high horse and complain that someone else didn't read what you said, you had best go back and read it yourself to see if you actually said what you thought you said. The words are still right there on the screen.
There is some real irony in assuming a snide and condescending tone from the very first moment of a conversation, and then getting offended when the person you've repeatedly talked down to takes offense.
If I'd meant to talk down to you from the start, dearie, I'd have told you straight-out that your little scenario is preposterous, and that you would do much better to leave horses out of your story entirely, since you clearly have no slightest comprehension of the fact that they are actual living beings rather than standardized robotic units.
Notice that I came into the conversation AFTER a lot of other people had already told you your scenario would not work, and you had ignorantly argued with them. Yes, child, you are making all the equestrians either cry or loudly sneer, because you simply refuse to 'get it'.
Oh yes, you've given so much though to your treeless environment - tell me, is it a big hay-producing region? Because a war-horse of the size you need will eat half a bale of alfalfa a day - not half a flake, half a bale. Do you imagine such a horse can get by grazing on sheep-pasture? This is me adopting a really sneering and condescending tone. There is a reason why people ride PONIES in such terrain, not 1500-lb. horses
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See, this is my point. You came into this conversation assuming that I have some preconceived notion about what a horse can and cannot do. I came into this conversation knowing, and admitting quite freely in multiple places (the words are still right there on the page), that I have almost no experience of horses whatsoever, and that the knowledge of people who do is sure to render my story much more realistic. I don’t object to the information about horses that you’ve shared - I find it valuable, I thanked you for it, and I noted above that I will change the story to reflect it. I object to the way that you’ve shared it. If you adhere to the Severus Snape School of Teaching, aka “Belittle people for not instantly being experts in a brand-new subject,” you’re going to get some pushback
( ... )
Here is a simple experiment you can try at home: first run a half-mile as fast as you can, and time your pace. The next day, put on a 75-lb. pack and run the same course. Are you as fast? How are your lungs, feet, knees and ankles? Suppose you take a fall while carrying all that weight? A horse can't run at its normal pace while carrying half its own weight either.
Somewhere, An Equestrian Is Crying
How Much Weight Can a Horse Carry?
Note that 1000 lbs. is average for a horse, so a 200-lb. man stark naked would already be 20% of its weight. A modern soldier's kit and weaponry weighs about 70 lbs, and does not include armor. You're asking this poor horse to canter with 600 lbs. on its back? This old equestrienne is crying already ( ... )
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"it's basically a case of "Unexpected high-stress confrontation, Character A swings Character B up onto the horse with him, they hightail it out of town while the antagonists run off to saddle their own horses and pursue the heroes."
This can't be done for similar reasons to why Batman can't really catch himself and another person by grabbing a rope while falling.
"the mountains that they are going to have to traverse to reach the border are not the kind of place you want to be walking around without weapons. They are indeed going to ditch some of their armor when they set off on foot"Are they ditching their helms and swords? Helms are expensive, and essential in battle (regardless of what assorted film-makers may think) but they're quite heavy. The logistics of carrying water are a little different without modern materials; in any case the water is still as heavy as ever ( ... )
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Ten miles a day off-trail through the Wyoming high country without a map or compass, and without previous knowledge of the way? I grant you, one might do ten miles worth of distance a day (and hundreds of feet of cumulative elevation gain and loss) but that doesn't mean one is ten miles closer to one's goal. Spring snow-melt means bad river crossings, and wet clothes mean probable hypothermia, both of which would cause delay.
Note, these are not objections; I'm a great believer in putting characters to the severest tests in all the ways. Yours could have to kill their good horse, or abandon her broken to a grim fate. They could have to put in 20 miles of traversing and backtracking around cliffs they can't climb and streams they can't cross in order to make 10 miles' progress - assuming they don't get lost, which is a pretty big assumption when they have nothing but the sun and stars to guide them.
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"As I said in my question, I'm certainly not envisioning a delicate little Arabian here, but some sort of draft horse cross like those that were actually used as warhorses."
What you actually said was " and while the horse is no delicate little racehorse it's not a giant draft horse either." And as I said in my initial reply, an average horse weighs about 1000 lbs. A horse can carry 20% of its weight without strain, but even so, can only safely sustain a gallop for about 20 minutes - less for the heavier breeds. 35% of its weight is a strain, but do-able. Ergo, if you want a horse that can canter with two full-grown men in armor, you'll need one that weighs at least 1400 lbs.
"a comparison between the level of exertion that is brutal but survivable, and the level that is likely to ( ... )
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Yep. Because it is indeed neither a delicate little racehorse, nor a giant draft horse. It’s a horse like the ones that my research informed me were probably used as warhorses, i.e. warmbloods like this and this. I thought my phrasing indicated a horse midway between something like Thoroughbred and something like a Percheron, but then we’ve already established that I know very little about horses, so apparently I should have been more specific (hence why I rephrased myself above). Happily, further research indicates that 1400 pounds is about right for a horse like the one I’m picturing, so I guess a short “canter away from the confrontation” is back on the table.
Have your characters dismount before the horse is totally blown (perhaps they see a good place to hide, and send the horse running down the road alone to lure the pursuit?)
That’s what I’ve been picturing. I’d just ( ... )
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All of that is good info. Thank you! When you say You're looking at a dead or irreparably injured animal at the end of this. And it likely will take much less than an hour to happen - is five minutes feasible? Based on responses I seem to have done a poor job conveying it, but the fact that they absolutely WILL need to abandon the horse and go on foot is very much a plot point; I’m certainly not expecting them to ride for an hour ( ... )
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There is no data on "how long/far/fast a horse can likely go with two armored riders on its back before being totally blown or dead" because there is no way to answer such an imprecise question. How long/far/fast can an 'average large human' run with two full back-packs?
A final word of advice: before you get on your high horse and complain that someone else didn't read what you said, you had best go back and read it yourself to see if you actually said what you thought you said. The words are still right there on the screen.
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Notice that I came into the conversation AFTER a lot of other people had already told you your scenario would not work, and you had ignorantly argued with them. Yes, child, you are making all the equestrians either cry or loudly sneer, because you simply refuse to 'get it'.
Oh yes, you've given so much though to your treeless environment - tell me, is it a big hay-producing region? Because a war-horse of the size you need will eat half a bale of alfalfa a day - not half a flake, half a bale. Do you imagine such a horse can get by grazing on sheep-pasture? This is me adopting a really sneering and condescending tone. There is a reason why people ride PONIES in such terrain, not 1500-lb. horses ( ... )
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