I appreciate you taking the time to answer. I don't appreciate your condescension.
I'm not asking the poor horse to do anything - I'm asking the Little Details community to help me figure out what is realistic so that I can conform to those standards, because as I've freely admitted I know very little about horses and haven't turned up good answers in my search. That, as far as I can tell, is what this community is for. It rather defeats the point of a forum for asking questions if you sneer at people for not already knowing the answers.
If you must know, he doesn't swing him up onto the horse - Character B is sitting on a wagon and Character A, on the horse, pulls up alongside. If you had read my comment above you would also know that the characters ditch nearly all of their armor and most of their kit before walking into the mountains, so it's not a loaded march. Having spent an extensive amount of time backpacking off-trail myself (occasionally with quite a heavy pack), I can assure you that ten miles a day is perfectly reasonable in a mostly treeless environment like the one I'm envisioning, and that I'm well acquainted with the logistics involved in finding and carrying water. Finally, the POINT of the scene is that the characters are forced into making desperate choices; nothing about the situation is meant to be well-planned or ideal in any way.
With all of that said, thank you for pointing out that my previous assumptions, based on the response of a previous poster, are incorrect. It sounds like asking the horse to do anything more than a walk, or at most a quick burst of speed just to get away from the initial confrontation, would be unrealistic. I will work that into the story.
"it's basically a case of "Unexpected high-stress confrontation, Character A swings Character B up onto the horse with him, they hightail it out of town while the antagonists run off to saddle their own horses and pursue the heroes."
This can't be done for similar reasons to why Batman can't really catch himself and another person by grabbing a rope while falling.
"the mountains that they are going to have to traverse to reach the border are not the kind of place you want to be walking around without weapons. They are indeed going to ditch some of their armor when they set off on foot".
Are they ditching their helms and swords? Helms are expensive, and essential in battle (regardless of what assorted film-makers may think) but they're quite heavy. The logistics of carrying water are a little different without modern materials; in any case the water is still as heavy as ever.
I don't know what kind of 'steep, rocky terrain' you may be envisioning, but if your characters are making 10 miles a day through it off-trail, it's definitely not the kind of steep, rocky terrain I'm envisioning. Water's not so easy to find in such places either, even in the winter.
"It sounds like asking the horse to do anything more than a walk, or at most a quick burst of speed just to get away from the initial confrontation, would be unrealistic."
It wouldn't necessarily be unrealistic; merely brutal. You already said the horse's owner was a pragmatic guy in a desperate plight: if he has a chance to save his own life by killing his horse, wouldn't he take it? But if you want realism, you can't ignore just how cruel this is to the horse.
You could always use a bigger horse. Today's giant draft horses descend from animals that were specifically bred to carry men in heavy armor. A proper war-horse could carry two armored riders far enough for your purposes without taking permanent damage. But big horses are slow, and they can't run very long. So if you take that option, your characters are going to need more than a half-hour's lead time.
Yes, I know what I wrote. I was trying to say it quickly (namely because it's not actually relevant to the question I asked), rather than write out the entire scene as it appears in the story. I'm aware that it can't be done, which is why I have no intention of writing it that way.
They are ditching everything except for their weapons and the gambesons they were wearing under their chainmail. Yes, I realize that represents an expensive monetary loss. It's played that way in the scene. Yes, water is heavy (a bit more than 8 pounds to the gallon, in fact). As for steep, rocky terrain, I am envisioning (among other places) the Wind River Mountains of Wyoming, where I have personally done a fair bit of off-trail backpacking. Ten miles a day is not a superhuman feat, I promise. And water is actually everywhere. (Yes, there are many, many mountain ranges where that is NOT the case. I've hiked in some of those too. As my characters are trudging through the fantasy-Winds in the spring, however, from a starting point in a major river valley, I find it safe to assume that they will encounter an embarrassment of riches in the streams and snowmelt department. It's about the only thing that's going to go well for them.)
But none of that really matters, because again, it's not relevant to the actual question I posed.
Duly noted. As I said in my question, I'm certainly not envisioning a delicate little Arabian here, but some sort of draft horse cross like those that were actually used as warhorses. They don't have to win the Kentucky Derby, just put as much initial distance between themselves and their pursuers as they can.
"Ten miles a day is not a superhuman feat, I promise."
Ten miles a day off-trail through the Wyoming high country without a map or compass, and without previous knowledge of the way? I grant you, one might do ten miles worth of distance a day (and hundreds of feet of cumulative elevation gain and loss) but that doesn't mean one is ten miles closer to one's goal. Spring snow-melt means bad river crossings, and wet clothes mean probable hypothermia, both of which would cause delay.
Note, these are not objections; I'm a great believer in putting characters to the severest tests in all the ways. Yours could have to kill their good horse, or abandon her broken to a grim fate. They could have to put in 20 miles of traversing and backtracking around cliffs they can't climb and streams they can't cross in order to make 10 miles' progress - assuming they don't get lost, which is a pretty big assumption when they have nothing but the sun and stars to guide them.
Indeed, navigating without a map and compass and with no previous knowledge of the way can be tricky (understatement). It is terribly convenient for our heroes, therefore, that the border is the crest of the mountain range (which means that the route is simple: go uphill) and that they are traveling largely above treeline (which means they can see where they're going). Obviously that's an oversimplification; my point is, I've thought this through. I've done a lot (a LOT) of backpacking in my life. I'm a certified Wilderness First Responder. At one point I was an on-call volunteer for a mountain rescue service. I didn't ask about that part of the story, because I'm quite confident in my ability to realistically write characters who are traveling through the mountains.
I asked about the horse, because I know next to nothing about horses. If I can get an estimate on how far and fast an average warhorse (a heavy sort of warmblood) can travel with two armored men on her back, without being permanently injured or killed in the process, I'll be a happy camper. (I'll be even happier if I can get a comparison between the level of exertion that is brutal but survivable, and the level that is likely to kill the poor horse, so that I'll have all my bases covered no matter how I decide to write it.)
Well, that is terribly convenient for them, indeed. Naturally, you can set up conditions in your story however you want. I don't know the Winds; perhaps Shoshone is a great deal more forgiving to the unprepared than Bighorn or Olympic National Forest are.
"As I said in my question, I'm certainly not envisioning a delicate little Arabian here, but some sort of draft horse cross like those that were actually used as warhorses."
What you actually said was " and while the horse is no delicate little racehorse it's not a giant draft horse either." And as I said in my initial reply, an average horse weighs about 1000 lbs. A horse can carry 20% of its weight without strain, but even so, can only safely sustain a gallop for about 20 minutes - less for the heavier breeds. 35% of its weight is a strain, but do-able. Ergo, if you want a horse that can canter with two full-grown men in armor, you'll need one that weighs at least 1400 lbs.
"a comparison between the level of exertion that is brutal but survivable, and the level that is likely to kill the poor horse"
The level of exertion that will kill the horse doesn't necessarily have to cause her to drop dead of heart failure, though that can certainly happen. As the medieval saying goes, "A lamed horse is a murdered horse": break a leg or damage a joint, and that horse's life is over.
If your characters are fleeing for their lives, presumably they're pushing the horse as fast as it can go, and won't stop until it can't go any more - at which point it will be in bad shape, even if (conveniently) not seriously injured. Then presumably they're abandoning the horse, rather than walking it, rubbing it down, etc. for a couple of hours, so lung congestion is probable, with pneumonia likely to follow. Are the pursuers going to break off their pursuit to catch this horse and lead it home to be cared for properly, or is it going to stumble around the moorlands in the cold night air by itself? As I said, dog food by morning.
If you want the horse to live, make it a destrier, around 1500 lbs; have your characters dismount before the horse is totally blown (perhaps they see a good place to hide, and send the horse running down the road alone to lure the pursuit?) and have someone take charge of the horse before it wanders off to drink cold water before it's cooled down (another way horses can die.)
It’s not, clearly, but neither does it even come close to covering the whole of the range. There are some pretty vast areas that are almost totally treeless.
Yep. Because it is indeed neither a delicate little racehorse, nor a giant draft horse. It’s a horse like the ones that my research informed me were probably used as warhorses, i.e. warmbloods like this and this. I thought my phrasing indicated a horse midway between something like Thoroughbred and something like a Percheron, but then we’ve already established that I know very little about horses, so apparently I should have been more specific (hence why I rephrased myself above). Happily, further research indicates that 1400 pounds is about right for a horse like the one I’m picturing, so I guess a short “canter away from the confrontation” is back on the table.
Have your characters dismount before the horse is totally blown (perhaps they see a good place to hide, and send the horse running down the road alone to lure the pursuit?)
That’s what I’ve been picturing. I’d just like to know roughly how much time they have before reaching that point.
Ok, I know this is a late post, but I'm curious if you really understand what you're saying regarding the differences in the size of those horses? Percherons - originally bred to be war horses and what you're listing as the largest - range from 15 to 19 hands and a weight of 1,100 to 2,600 pounds. Friesians range from 15 to 17 hands and weigh in around 1,450 pounds. And Holsteiners - commonly used as a jumping breed, not an endurance one - are 16 to 17 hands, weighing in under 1,500 pounds. A Thoroughbred in comparison ranges from 15 to 17 hands and can weigh between 1,000 and 1,500 pounds. A hand is about 4 inches and is measured to the shoulder. Meaning the smallest off all those breeds is five feet tall. At the shoulder. And warmbloods like these are generally around 32" across their back. They're all big. The difference is in how much they can carry. There have been studies done that lend credence to the theory that horses can comfortably carry weights up to around 20% of their body weight. 25% and up and they start showing increased strain and injury levels. A 1,400 pound horse like you're looking at would start being strained under a load of 350 pounds.
Let's do some math. The average weight of an adult person over the whole world is about 137 pounds, but you say they're big guys so let's use the US male average of about 195 pounds. so let's use that just to give you some fudge room. Two completely naked adults then is 390 pounds. Your horse is already strained at this point, but let's keep going.
Tack has weight. Saddle, bridle, saddle pad, saddle bags. It all adds up. Modern saddles can weigh as little as ten pounds, but you're more likely looking at a good 30 pounds and more. A good wool saddle blanket is around 4 pounds. Saddle bags that are empty can weigh 10 to 20 pounds. Full depends on what's in them but let's say they weigh 25 pounds total. Call it another 5 pounds for bit, bridle, and reins. That's another 64 plus pounds so now the naked guys and tack together are putting 454 pounds on the horse.
Now let's get into what the guys are wearing. Their clothes and footgear has weight. Let's say both have boots that weigh a total of 5 pounds. That's 10 pounds. Modern jeans weigh close to 3 pounds and a sweater is around a half pound so let's just say their clothes weighs 5 pounds a piece given they likely have leather, belts, and heavier metal fasteners. That's probably still low, but another 10 pounds. Armor is maille, gambeson, and helmets (assuming on that, you may have not bothered with them). A 15th Century 2nd Quarter, short sleeved maille hauberk that would hit about mid-thigh weighs about 19.5 pounds. There's one that dates back to possibly the 1208 battle of Lena at Kungslena that weighs 33.7 pounds. A reproduction of a 14th century linen gambeson weighs 5 pounds. So around 25 pounds of armor a piece. Another 50 pounds there. As for helms, a simple spangenhelm type - think an riveted iron skull cap helmet with a nose guard - made today can weigh 4 pounds. Another 8 pounds. That's an additional 78 pounds of weight bringing the total up to 532 pounds.
And then there's the weapons. Assuming a single sword and dagger for each man, no axes or shields which would up the weight even more. Average medival style swords weigh between 2.5 and 3.5 pounds, so let's split the difference and call it 3 pounds each. 6 pounds total. Dagger is definitely less, probably around a half pound, so that's just 1 more pound for 7 pounds total. So we come up with 539 pounds of weight on this poor horse not counting food or additional gear beyond what is in the 5 to 15 pounds stuffed in the saddlebags.
These men are asking this horse to carry 38.5% of its body weight, at a run, with no recourse for rest, food, or care at the end. Every step is a risk of a broken leg. Every minute under the burden risks increasing injury. If they push the horse to its limits which they'd have to in this scenario, it will founder under this demand. You're looking at a dead or irrepairably injured animal at the end of this. And it likely will take much less than an hour to happen. There's no way that it's going to walk away uninjured.
No, I don’t know a lot about horses, though I’ve tried to remedy at least a bit of my ignorance with research (and with this post). Everything I’ve read thus far indicates that warmblood breeds like Frisians and Holsteiners are the closest modern equivalent medieval destriers/warhorses, so that’s what I went with as an example. Essentially, I’m picturing a horse like you and elenbarathi have described: big, muscular, about 1500 pounds, perhaps slightly more agile than a truly enormous draft horse but unlikely to be breaking any speed records, either. If I’ve gotten something wrong there, please let me know.
All of that is good info. Thank you! When you say You're looking at a dead or irreparably injured animal at the end of this. And it likely will take much less than an hour to happen - is five minutes feasible? Based on responses I seem to have done a poor job conveying it, but the fact that they absolutely WILL need to abandon the horse and go on foot is very much a plot point; I’m certainly not expecting them to ride for an hour. I’d just like to know if it’s possible for them to put a tiny bit of distance - even just around the bend in the road, out of the enemy’s sightline - between themselves and their pursuers first. If not I can rework the scene.
It’s not, clearly, but nor does it (or the Bridger, for that matter) begin to cover the entirety of the range. Since I’ve already defined the particular region where this part of the story takes place as being remarkably treeless (and, would you know it, planned out a society and economy that is likely to exist in such an environment - it’s almost like I’m the sort of person who puts thought and research into my writing. And comes on Little Details, for questions on which I recognize that my own knowledge is lacking), I didn’t suddenly feel the need to plant a forest in the way of my protagonists’ escape.
Yep. Because it is indeed neither a delicate little racehorse nor a giant draft horse. It’s a warmblood like a Frisian or a Holsteiner, because that’s what my research indicates is most likely to be used as a warhorse (and most similar to what they would have called a destrier in the Middle Ages). I thought my initial phrasing conveyed a midpoint between something like a Thoroughbred and something like a Percheron, but as we’ve established I don’t know much about horses, and apparently I should have been more specific. That’s why I clarified my intentions with “some sort of draft horse cross like those that were actually used as warhorses.” Happily it seems like a relatively short cantering flight is feasible for the sort of horse I’m envisioning, so I guess that’s back on the table.
Look, I really do appreciate that you’re attempting to be helpful. I’m just not sure what’s to be gained - for either of us - by you operating under the assumption that every single thing I say, including my cursory contextual sketch that is by its very nature an oversimplified account of what actually happens in-story, is fatally flawed. I realize that there are a lot of people out there writing fantasy stories that blindly follow incredibly unrealistic tropes, but the reason I’m on here in the first place is because I value realism and I’m willing to do the research to ensure it. The question that I ACTUALLY ASKED, the one that I’m having a difficult time finding through research, deals with how long/far/fast a horse can likely go with two armored riders on its back before being totally blown or dead.
If you want to be helpful you can give me a hand in estimating that (a minute of cantering? Five minutes? Fifteen? Thirty? A quarter mile, a mile, three miles?) for the sort of large warhorse that we both agree is most likely. Anything you want to add about horses is welcome. Clarification questions are welcome. Even suggestions about the context are welcome, but I would prefer that they come without a side order of contempt. By definition, people who ask questions are typically aware that their knowledge is limited in some way. There’s no need to sneeringly point out the limits of their knowledge (and in fact, if you had asked good-faith clarification questions from the beginning you would quickly have realized that I’m not as ignorant as you seem to think I am - I’ve been planning on a heavy warmblood type horse all along, because that’s what my research indicates is most likely for this character to own, and what common sense indicates is most likely to be able to handle two riders for at least a short while).
If being helpful is not your goal then by all means continue to be patronizing, but in that case I’m afraid our conversation is at an end.
No. Play 'Tone Police' with somebody else. I have lost interest in trying to help a person who takes offense at every turn.
There is no data on "how long/far/fast a horse can likely go with two armored riders on its back before being totally blown or dead" because there is no way to answer such an imprecise question. How long/far/fast can an 'average large human' run with two full back-packs?
A final word of advice: before you get on your high horse and complain that someone else didn't read what you said, you had best go back and read it yourself to see if you actually said what you thought you said. The words are still right there on the screen.
There is some real irony in assuming a snide and condescending tone from the very first moment of a conversation, and then getting offended when the person you've repeatedly talked down to takes offense.
If I'd meant to talk down to you from the start, dearie, I'd have told you straight-out that your little scenario is preposterous, and that you would do much better to leave horses out of your story entirely, since you clearly have no slightest comprehension of the fact that they are actual living beings rather than standardized robotic units.
Notice that I came into the conversation AFTER a lot of other people had already told you your scenario would not work, and you had ignorantly argued with them. Yes, child, you are making all the equestrians either cry or loudly sneer, because you simply refuse to 'get it'.
Oh yes, you've given so much though to your treeless environment - tell me, is it a big hay-producing region? Because a war-horse of the size you need will eat half a bale of alfalfa a day - not half a flake, half a bale. Do you imagine such a horse can get by grazing on sheep-pasture? This is me adopting a really sneering and condescending tone. There is a reason why people ride PONIES in such terrain, not 1500-lb. horses.
So you think a 1500-lb. horse can run for ten minutes? I told my daughter (the serious equestrienne) this notion, and her furious response was "What?!? He'd burst his heart!" Yes, precisely. Those big horses can pull all day long, but they are not built to run, even with a 100-pound girl astride.
Oh sure, you're going to have two big guys in armor astride a Freisian or Percheron, and they're going to whip it into a canter. Well, dearie, before the canter comes the trot, and the rider in back is going to be flat on his back in the dust. Have you ever seen an actual draft horse? Did you by any chance notice the breadth of its back? How do you think anyone is going to stay on there without a saddle, even if he's not in 60 lbs. of maille? Play that video of a draft horse cantering that I linked you, and imagine the glorious crash.
Not that they'd get that far, because the horse would certainly not tolerate any such abuse. Horses, unlike cars and motorcycles, have definite opinions about how they're treated, and a whole host of unpleasant ways to make those opinions known. War-horses were not tame little palfreys; they were fierce and aggressive creatures. Don't you think, if 300 lbs. of maille-wearing stranger suddenly jumped on his kidneys, that the horse's first priority might be to get it off in the most expedient fashion? 'Cos I do.
So, there you go, my arrogant young friend; that is how a "snide and condescending tone" is properly done. Assuming your work ever gets before a real editor, you may expect more of the same, unless you learn to check that ego of yours and accept correction when it's given you.
See, this is my point. You came into this conversation assuming that I have some preconceived notion about what a horse can and cannot do. I came into this conversation knowing, and admitting quite freely in multiple places (the words are still right there on the page), that I have almost no experience of horses whatsoever, and that the knowledge of people who do is sure to render my story much more realistic. I don’t object to the information about horses that you’ve shared - I find it valuable, I thanked you for it, and I noted above that I will change the story to reflect it. I object to the way that you’ve shared it. If you adhere to the Severus Snape School of Teaching, aka “Belittle people for not instantly being experts in a brand-new subject,” you’re going to get some pushback.
I sincerely apologize if I gave you the impression that I was not willing to learn or accept correction. I was admittedly irritated by your tone, and I'm sure that came through in my own - that part's on me. I’m won’t apologize for asking to be treated with respect.
I'm not asking the poor horse to do anything - I'm asking the Little Details community to help me figure out what is realistic so that I can conform to those standards, because as I've freely admitted I know very little about horses and haven't turned up good answers in my search. That, as far as I can tell, is what this community is for. It rather defeats the point of a forum for asking questions if you sneer at people for not already knowing the answers.
If you must know, he doesn't swing him up onto the horse - Character B is sitting on a wagon and Character A, on the horse, pulls up alongside. If you had read my comment above you would also know that the characters ditch nearly all of their armor and most of their kit before walking into the mountains, so it's not a loaded march. Having spent an extensive amount of time backpacking off-trail myself (occasionally with quite a heavy pack), I can assure you that ten miles a day is perfectly reasonable in a mostly treeless environment like the one I'm envisioning, and that I'm well acquainted with the logistics involved in finding and carrying water. Finally, the POINT of the scene is that the characters are forced into making desperate choices; nothing about the situation is meant to be well-planned or ideal in any way.
With all of that said, thank you for pointing out that my previous assumptions, based on the response of a previous poster, are incorrect. It sounds like asking the horse to do anything more than a walk, or at most a quick burst of speed just to get away from the initial confrontation, would be unrealistic. I will work that into the story.
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"it's basically a case of "Unexpected high-stress confrontation, Character A swings Character B up onto the horse with him, they hightail it out of town while the antagonists run off to saddle their own horses and pursue the heroes."
This can't be done for similar reasons to why Batman can't really catch himself and another person by grabbing a rope while falling.
"the mountains that they are going to have to traverse to reach the border are not the kind of place you want to be walking around without weapons. They are indeed going to ditch some of their armor when they set off on foot".
Are they ditching their helms and swords? Helms are expensive, and essential in battle (regardless of what assorted film-makers may think) but they're quite heavy. The logistics of carrying water are a little different without modern materials; in any case the water is still as heavy as ever.
I don't know what kind of 'steep, rocky terrain' you may be envisioning, but if your characters are making 10 miles a day through it off-trail, it's definitely not the kind of steep, rocky terrain I'm envisioning. Water's not so easy to find in such places either, even in the winter.
"It sounds like asking the horse to do anything more than a walk, or at most a quick burst of speed just to get away from the initial confrontation, would be unrealistic."
It wouldn't necessarily be unrealistic; merely brutal. You already said the horse's owner was a pragmatic guy in a desperate plight: if he has a chance to save his own life by killing his horse, wouldn't he take it? But if you want realism, you can't ignore just how cruel this is to the horse.
You could always use a bigger horse. Today's giant draft horses descend from animals that were specifically bred to carry men in heavy armor. A proper war-horse could carry two armored riders far enough for your purposes without taking permanent damage. But big horses are slow, and they can't run very long. So if you take that option, your characters are going to need more than a half-hour's lead time.
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They are ditching everything except for their weapons and the gambesons they were wearing under their chainmail. Yes, I realize that represents an expensive monetary loss. It's played that way in the scene. Yes, water is heavy (a bit more than 8 pounds to the gallon, in fact). As for steep, rocky terrain, I am envisioning (among other places) the Wind River Mountains of Wyoming, where I have personally done a fair bit of off-trail backpacking. Ten miles a day is not a superhuman feat, I promise. And water is actually everywhere. (Yes, there are many, many mountain ranges where that is NOT the case. I've hiked in some of those too. As my characters are trudging through the fantasy-Winds in the spring, however, from a starting point in a major river valley, I find it safe to assume that they will encounter an embarrassment of riches in the streams and snowmelt department. It's about the only thing that's going to go well for them.)
But none of that really matters, because again, it's not relevant to the actual question I posed.
Duly noted. As I said in my question, I'm certainly not envisioning a delicate little Arabian here, but some sort of draft horse cross like those that were actually used as warhorses. They don't have to win the Kentucky Derby, just put as much initial distance between themselves and their pursuers as they can.
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Ten miles a day off-trail through the Wyoming high country without a map or compass, and without previous knowledge of the way? I grant you, one might do ten miles worth of distance a day (and hundreds of feet of cumulative elevation gain and loss) but that doesn't mean one is ten miles closer to one's goal. Spring snow-melt means bad river crossings, and wet clothes mean probable hypothermia, both of which would cause delay.
Note, these are not objections; I'm a great believer in putting characters to the severest tests in all the ways. Yours could have to kill their good horse, or abandon her broken to a grim fate. They could have to put in 20 miles of traversing and backtracking around cliffs they can't climb and streams they can't cross in order to make 10 miles' progress - assuming they don't get lost, which is a pretty big assumption when they have nothing but the sun and stars to guide them.
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I asked about the horse, because I know next to nothing about horses. If I can get an estimate on how far and fast an average warhorse (a heavy sort of warmblood) can travel with two armored men on her back, without being permanently injured or killed in the process, I'll be a happy camper. (I'll be even happier if I can get a comparison between the level of exertion that is brutal but survivable, and the level that is likely to kill the poor horse, so that I'll have all my bases covered no matter how I decide to write it.)
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"As I said in my question, I'm certainly not envisioning a delicate little Arabian here, but some sort of draft horse cross like those that were actually used as warhorses."
What you actually said was " and while the horse is no delicate little racehorse it's not a giant draft horse either." And as I said in my initial reply, an average horse weighs about 1000 lbs. A horse can carry 20% of its weight without strain, but even so, can only safely sustain a gallop for about 20 minutes - less for the heavier breeds. 35% of its weight is a strain, but do-able. Ergo, if you want a horse that can canter with two full-grown men in armor, you'll need one that weighs at least 1400 lbs.
"a comparison between the level of exertion that is brutal but survivable, and the level that is likely to kill the poor horse"
The level of exertion that will kill the horse doesn't necessarily have to cause her to drop dead of heart failure, though that can certainly happen. As the medieval saying goes, "A lamed horse is a murdered horse": break a leg or damage a joint, and that horse's life is over.
If your characters are fleeing for their lives, presumably they're pushing the horse as fast as it can go, and won't stop until it can't go any more - at which point it will be in bad shape, even if (conveniently) not seriously injured. Then presumably they're abandoning the horse, rather than walking it, rubbing it down, etc. for a couple of hours, so lung congestion is probable, with pneumonia likely to follow. Are the pursuers going to break off their pursuit to catch this horse and lead it home to be cared for properly, or is it going to stumble around the moorlands in the cold night air by itself? As I said, dog food by morning.
If you want the horse to live, make it a destrier, around 1500 lbs; have your characters dismount before the horse is totally blown (perhaps they see a good place to hide, and send the horse running down the road alone to lure the pursuit?) and have someone take charge of the horse before it wanders off to drink cold water before it's cooled down (another way horses can die.)
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Yep. Because it is indeed neither a delicate little racehorse, nor a giant draft horse. It’s a horse like the ones that my research informed me were probably used as warhorses, i.e. warmbloods like this and this. I thought my phrasing indicated a horse midway between something like Thoroughbred and something like a Percheron, but then we’ve already established that I know very little about horses, so apparently I should have been more specific (hence why I rephrased myself above). Happily, further research indicates that 1400 pounds is about right for a horse like the one I’m picturing, so I guess a short “canter away from the confrontation” is back on the table.
Have your characters dismount before the horse is totally blown (perhaps they see a good place to hide, and send the horse running down the road alone to lure the pursuit?)
That’s what I’ve been picturing. I’d just like to know roughly how much time they have before reaching that point.
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Let's do some math. The average weight of an adult person over the whole world is about 137 pounds, but you say they're big guys so let's use the US male average of about 195 pounds. so let's use that just to give you some fudge room. Two completely naked adults then is 390 pounds. Your horse is already strained at this point, but let's keep going.
Tack has weight. Saddle, bridle, saddle pad, saddle bags. It all adds up. Modern saddles can weigh as little as ten pounds, but you're more likely looking at a good 30 pounds and more. A good wool saddle blanket is around 4 pounds. Saddle bags that are empty can weigh 10 to 20 pounds. Full depends on what's in them but let's say they weigh 25 pounds total. Call it another 5 pounds for bit, bridle, and reins. That's another 64 plus pounds so now the naked guys and tack together are putting 454 pounds on the horse.
Now let's get into what the guys are wearing. Their clothes and footgear has weight. Let's say both have boots that weigh a total of 5 pounds. That's 10 pounds. Modern jeans weigh close to 3 pounds and a sweater is around a half pound so let's just say their clothes weighs 5 pounds a piece given they likely have leather, belts, and heavier metal fasteners. That's probably still low, but another 10 pounds. Armor is maille, gambeson, and helmets (assuming on that, you may have not bothered with them). A 15th Century 2nd Quarter, short sleeved maille hauberk that would hit about mid-thigh weighs about 19.5 pounds. There's one that dates back to possibly the 1208 battle of Lena at Kungslena that weighs 33.7 pounds. A reproduction of a 14th century linen gambeson weighs 5 pounds. So around 25 pounds of armor a piece. Another 50 pounds there. As for helms, a simple spangenhelm type - think an riveted iron skull cap helmet with a nose guard - made today can weigh 4 pounds. Another 8 pounds. That's an additional 78 pounds of weight bringing the total up to 532 pounds.
And then there's the weapons. Assuming a single sword and dagger for each man, no axes or shields which would up the weight even more. Average medival style swords weigh between 2.5 and 3.5 pounds, so let's split the difference and call it 3 pounds each. 6 pounds total. Dagger is definitely less, probably around a half pound, so that's just 1 more pound for 7 pounds total. So we come up with 539 pounds of weight on this poor horse not counting food or additional gear beyond what is in the 5 to 15 pounds stuffed in the saddlebags.
These men are asking this horse to carry 38.5% of its body weight, at a run, with no recourse for rest, food, or care at the end. Every step is a risk of a broken leg. Every minute under the burden risks increasing injury. If they push the horse to its limits which they'd have to in this scenario, it will founder under this demand. You're looking at a dead or irrepairably injured animal at the end of this. And it likely will take much less than an hour to happen. There's no way that it's going to walk away uninjured.
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All of that is good info. Thank you! When you say You're looking at a dead or irreparably injured animal at the end of this. And it likely will take much less than an hour to happen - is five minutes feasible? Based on responses I seem to have done a poor job conveying it, but the fact that they absolutely WILL need to abandon the horse and go on foot is very much a plot point; I’m certainly not expecting them to ride for an hour. I’d just like to know if it’s possible for them to put a tiny bit of distance - even just around the bend in the road, out of the enemy’s sightline - between themselves and their pursuers first. If not I can rework the scene.
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Yep. Because it is indeed neither a delicate little racehorse nor a giant draft horse. It’s a warmblood like a Frisian or a Holsteiner, because that’s what my research indicates is most likely to be used as a warhorse (and most similar to what they would have called a destrier in the Middle Ages). I thought my initial phrasing conveyed a midpoint between something like a Thoroughbred and something like a Percheron, but as we’ve established I don’t know much about horses, and apparently I should have been more specific. That’s why I clarified my intentions with “some sort of draft horse cross like those that were actually used as warhorses.” Happily it seems like a relatively short cantering flight is feasible for the sort of horse I’m envisioning, so I guess that’s back on the table.
Look, I really do appreciate that you’re attempting to be helpful. I’m just not sure what’s to be gained - for either of us - by you operating under the assumption that every single thing I say, including my cursory contextual sketch that is by its very nature an oversimplified account of what actually happens in-story, is fatally flawed. I realize that there are a lot of people out there writing fantasy stories that blindly follow incredibly unrealistic tropes, but the reason I’m on here in the first place is because I value realism and I’m willing to do the research to ensure it. The question that I ACTUALLY ASKED, the one that I’m having a difficult time finding through research, deals with how long/far/fast a horse can likely go with two armored riders on its back before being totally blown or dead.
If you want to be helpful you can give me a hand in estimating that (a minute of cantering? Five minutes? Fifteen? Thirty? A quarter mile, a mile, three miles?) for the sort of large warhorse that we both agree is most likely. Anything you want to add about horses is welcome. Clarification questions are welcome. Even suggestions about the context are welcome, but I would prefer that they come without a side order of contempt. By definition, people who ask questions are typically aware that their knowledge is limited in some way. There’s no need to sneeringly point out the limits of their knowledge (and in fact, if you had asked good-faith clarification questions from the beginning you would quickly have realized that I’m not as ignorant as you seem to think I am - I’ve been planning on a heavy warmblood type horse all along, because that’s what my research indicates is most likely for this character to own, and what common sense indicates is most likely to be able to handle two riders for at least a short while).
If being helpful is not your goal then by all means continue to be patronizing, but in that case I’m afraid our conversation is at an end.
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There is no data on "how long/far/fast a horse can likely go with two armored riders on its back before being totally blown or dead" because there is no way to answer such an imprecise question. How long/far/fast can an 'average large human' run with two full back-packs?
A final word of advice: before you get on your high horse and complain that someone else didn't read what you said, you had best go back and read it yourself to see if you actually said what you thought you said. The words are still right there on the screen.
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Notice that I came into the conversation AFTER a lot of other people had already told you your scenario would not work, and you had ignorantly argued with them. Yes, child, you are making all the equestrians either cry or loudly sneer, because you simply refuse to 'get it'.
Oh yes, you've given so much though to your treeless environment - tell me, is it a big hay-producing region? Because a war-horse of the size you need will eat half a bale of alfalfa a day - not half a flake, half a bale. Do you imagine such a horse can get by grazing on sheep-pasture? This is me adopting a really sneering and condescending tone. There is a reason why people ride PONIES in such terrain, not 1500-lb. horses.
So you think a 1500-lb. horse can run for ten minutes? I told my daughter (the serious equestrienne) this notion, and her furious response was "What?!? He'd burst his heart!" Yes, precisely. Those big horses can pull all day long, but they are not built to run, even with a 100-pound girl astride.
Oh sure, you're going to have two big guys in armor astride a Freisian or Percheron, and they're going to whip it into a canter. Well, dearie, before the canter comes the trot, and the rider in back is going to be flat on his back in the dust. Have you ever seen an actual draft horse? Did you by any chance notice the breadth of its back? How do you think anyone is going to stay on there without a saddle, even if he's not in 60 lbs. of maille? Play that video of a draft horse cantering that I linked you, and imagine the glorious crash.
Not that they'd get that far, because the horse would certainly not tolerate any such abuse. Horses, unlike cars and motorcycles, have definite opinions about how they're treated, and a whole host of unpleasant ways to make those opinions known. War-horses were not tame little palfreys; they were fierce and aggressive creatures. Don't you think, if 300 lbs. of maille-wearing stranger suddenly jumped on his kidneys, that the horse's first priority might be to get it off in the most expedient fashion? 'Cos I do.
So, there you go, my arrogant young friend; that is how a "snide and condescending tone" is properly done. Assuming your work ever gets before a real editor, you may expect more of the same, unless you learn to check that ego of yours and accept correction when it's given you.
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I sincerely apologize if I gave you the impression that I was not willing to learn or accept correction. I was admittedly irritated by your tone, and I'm sure that came through in my own - that part's on me. I’m won’t apologize for asking to be treated with respect.
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