Meta! Rambling! Angel!

[lettered]

Over the last few months, I've been rewatching BtVS and AtS, and during S3 of BtVS some things began to make sense to me that hadn't before. This stuff has kinda been brewing for a long time, and it all just burped on the page, so it might not really be an essay or great meta or whatever. I'm going for three things, here

Comments

[lynnenne]

Hmmmm. I agree with some of this; not so much other parts. I agree on the "moment of perfect happiness" theory--it wasn't just that he loved Buffy, but that he thought, for the first time in 200 years, that he could be a man. At that point in his life, Buffy was his "Shanshu," so to speak. If they met up again now, I don't think that would hold true anymore.

As for the rest--I disagree that Liam/Angelus/Angel was ever that self-pitying. I doubt Liam had any ambitions to be an artist, and I don't think he was shiftless because he had failed to "become someone." What Liam wanted more than anything was to piss his father off, and he did it spectacularly well. In that sense, he was never a failure. He was a huge success. He continued being a huge success after he was vamped; as a human, he confined himself to acts that wouldn't get him thrown in jail or swinging from the hangman's noose. Once vamped, he was freed from all human and moral constraints, and he could be as cruel, evil and sacreligious as he liked. Angelus was all about mocking God, no doubt because his father would have been horrified. Darla certainly encouraged him down that road, but I think he would have taken it with or without her prompting.

Once re-ensouled, Angel is filled with self-loathing, but I don't think he wanders for a hundred years because he thinks he's a failure. I think he does it out of a fear of failure--failure to control himself. Humans are a constant temptation to Angel. He's afraid he might give into his demonic urges and begin feeding on them again. He isolates himself, not because he feels sorry for himself, but because he doesn't trust himself around humans and doesn't feel a part of their world. There are moments, as you say, where he starts to believe he might be able to put his soul to good use and do some good in the word--but he slips (leaving the hotel to the Thessulac, feeding on Diner Guy) and decides that no, he's not safe around human beings and must get as far away from them as possible.

It's only when he starts keeping company with Buffy that he realizes he may actually be *able* to do good, because she'd stake him the minute he bit someone. *g* Angel eventually realizes, as you point out, that having friends around to help keep you in line can be a powerful way to live, and allows each of us to put that soul to good use. It's also why he leaves Buffy--because she's a constant temptation to him, and if he's to hang onto that soul and keep from hurting her, he has to begin relying on other people (as Doyle points out, in the first episode of AtS). Angel is in a constant battle against his own nature. He fights on the side of right, but he is not a righteous man.

[ex_dovil323]

I could be in heaven, two big Angel brains discussing things and I get ringside seats - yay!

What Liam wanted more than anything was to piss his father off, and he did it spectacularly well.

Here's the dialogue from that scene:

http://vrya.net/bdb/clip.php?clip=4556

The bit where Darla talks about approval makes me think that this is what he most desired from his father, not some kind of victory, and I think that's what added to the emotional punch of Angelus killing him. Besides the bit where he, you know, became a blood sucking fiend and murdered his father. Opps.

I also think your interpretations might not necessarily be either or but instead maybe a mix of both?

[dlgood]

There's also "Spin the Bottle" where the teenaged Liam isn't, I think, nearly so remarkable. In terms of the relationship with his dad, you see him pointing out both being disapproved by his father (and hurt by it) while also aware of his father's own hypocrises.

Liam, the human, seemed like a very frustrated person to me. The way he relates with Faith... while I think the drinking and carousing was probably fun for him, I don't think it ever made him happy. He could have worked better to make himself more fulfilled (we do eventually see that on other shows) but he was perhaps too melancholy of dispostion to do that on his own without feeling a tug from someone else first.

[ex_dovil323]

Yeah, I wonder if Liam wasn't a bit like Xander in a way - he had potential but there was this lazy inertia and a lack of self confidence or fear of failure - except of course Xander had his immediate gratification from things like comic books, Liam had his from booze and wenches. But I think probably both of them occassionally stuck their heads up and wanted more and that's where the frustration came from - from their upbringings, their lack of support, from their own shortcomings. Eventually of course Xander got his A into gear after the replacements episode and slowly starting climbing to the top in construction and Angel - well we know what Angel does. :D

[dlgood]

I do think there's a certain level of similarity between the two. Although, a lot of the things they have in common are things they don't like about themselves. The negative self-image, the fear of failure, the lazy inertia... And I think those negative aspects of themselves and each other, are things they look at more than what postive qualities they have in common when dealing with each other.

One difference though, being that Xander can deal with not being the special one. Nobody really likes being a sidekick in someone else's life story, but Xander can deal with it. Xander is a team player, while Angel is a 'visionary' type and needs to be fulfilling his own direction to fulfill himself. Xander can be fulfilled by going with somebody else's.

[lettered]

Xander is a team player, while Angel is a 'visionary' type and needs to be fulfilling his own direction to fulfill himself.

I'm not sure. Part of the point of this post, of course, was to show that Liam is also a visionary, and that that "vision" as a human got translated into his vampire self, in both an evil extreme and a good extreme. But Liam had given up on his vision, or if he hadn't given up for good he certainly wasn't doing much to follow it.

Who's to say it wasn't the same with Xander? And once Xander met Buffy, it seems very possible to me that working with her was as close to fulfilling his vision as he could get. And he obviously has his periodic issues with it as well--searching for his own place in the universe, etc.

The thing about Liam is that Liam got the chance, the big break, fate taking him by the hand--a chance to fulfill his vision. Perhaps if Liam had met Buffy first, he'd've been able to deal with being the sidekick, too.

[dlgood]

That's not really my read, mostly because everything I see of Xander is Xander as part of a peer group (Willow--Xander--Jesse) and Angel as lone. (He's the son, the big brother, the mentor, and the older boyfriend, and the older boyfriend among the parental figures who distrust him -- but never really a peer.)

I do think, however, that you do make a case that under different circumstances they might have developed differently.

[lettered]

That's exactly the point of the "Angel and Xander meta thing" I mentioned at the top of this post! YOU READ MY MIND. Like you ate it and here's its vomit. But in a good way.

Yeah, basically I have this theory that Xander-before-Buffy and Liam-before-Darla are very alike...except Xander got to meet Buffy first, while Liam was stuck with Darla first. Xander obviously has great potential for good, which Buffy incites him to fulfill, but what would Xander have been without Buffy? And what could Liam have been had Darla been Buffy?

In fact, I was thinking about writing a fic about it. In which there's some kinda time switcheroo right in WTTH and Liam meets Buffy and Xander meets Darla.

[jgracio]

mara_sho has been saying that Angel and Xander are more alike than different, and I don't disagree.

Xander obviously has great potential for good, which Buffy incites him to fulfill, but what would Xander have been without Buffy?
Hum, if not vamped, a fairly decent man, trying hard not to be like his father, but probably being like him sometimes.

And what could Liam have been had Darla been Buffy?
Depends on if he fell in love with her or not. Because one big difference was that Liam could get laid anytime, he was probably closer to a jock than a nerd, Buffy wouldn't have been one third of his entire peer group. And he was older, more experienced, less inclined to romance.

In fact, I was thinking about writing a fic about it. In which there's some kinda time switcheroo right in WTTH and Liam meets Buffy and Xander meets Darla.

The world NEEDS this fic.

[lettered]

Depends on if he fell in love with her or not. Because one big difference was that Liam could get laid anytime, he was probably closer to a jock than a nerd, Buffy wouldn't have been one third of his entire peer group. And he was older, more experienced, less inclined to romance.

This is true. But also, if you consider it within the broader scheme of their lives: perhaps Liam was awkward and reserved when he was a teenager. And perhaps everyone would've realized the total hotness that was Xander by age 26.

The world NEEDS this fic.

I think so too. And not only because vamp!Xander is teh hotness.

[lettered]

The bit where Darla talks about approval makes me think that this is what he most desired from his father, not some kind of victory,

Yeah, exactly--I think you and Dave hit the nail on the head with that.

I also think your interpretations might not necessarily be either or but instead maybe a mix of both?

Yeah, as I said at the beginning of this post and as I just told Lynne: I'm not sure I agree with everything I say about Angel here, either. This presents a very uniform viewpoint that's very specific, and it's far more likely that Angel doesn't conform to any particular way of acting that's so easily defined, just as real life humans don't.

[dlgood]

What Liam wanted more than anything was to piss his father off, and he did it spectacularly well. In that sense, he was never a failure. He was a huge success.

I would disagree here. I don't think it was what he wanted more than anything else. And while he may have had a little bit of fun, I don't think it made him happy. Granted - we don't have a lot of scenes to go on - just "Becoming", "The Prodigal", and "Spin the Bottle".

I'm not sure Liam, himself, really knew what he wanted to do with his life - pissing off his father and living down to expectations seemed to me to be something he'd settled into doing as a default way to pass time rather than actively pursuing things that would make him feel fulfilled and happy.

[lettered]

something he'd settled into doing as a default way to pass time rather than actively pursuing things that would make him feel fulfilled and happy.

Ha, you beat me to it!

[lettered]

Well, like I said, I'm not sure I agree with a lot of things here either! A lot of it is quite a bit of a different way of looking at Angel than I've previously held before.

I don't disagree with your disagreements (how's that for a round about way of stating things), but I'm going to hit your points because I want to clarify the viewpoint I was trying to get across.

What Liam wanted more than anything was to piss his father off, and he did it spectacularly well. In that sense, he was never a failure.

There's that line:

"A more dutiful son you couldn’t have asked for. My whole life you told me in word, in glance, what it is you required of me, and I’ve lived down to your every expectations, now haven’t I?"

I assumed that meant his father had always told him he was a failure, and so Liam did his damnedest to become one--exactly as you say. But I guess I have trouble wrapping my head that being his true ambition--there's more bitterness there than glee. If he really had no goal other than to upset his father, why is Liam so upset in that scene? Why would he care, other than to mock and gloat? His attitude here seems more like someone who did have his own hopes and dreams, and felt like he was crushed down by the weight of his father's disapproval. In retribution, he set about making himself into what his father taught of him, but only because he was too weak and yes, self-pitying to realize that his father holds no real power over him any more.

But yeah, I see what you mean, and there's really no way to get a clear picture of Liam either way.

I don't think he wanders for a hundred years because he thinks he's a failure. I think he does it out of a fear of failure--failure to control himself.

Not so sure I see the difference, actually. If he isolates himself because he's afraid he might give into his demonic urges, then he's accepting that he's weak enough to possibly give into them, and in doing so he's accepting his own failure.

It's only when he starts keeping company with Buffy that he realizes he may actually be *able* to do good,

Exactly. I mean, even if he's staying away to protect others, that means he's staying away because he thinks he's a failure. He thinks he's too much of a loser to do any better. And it's not until Buffy comes along he realizes he can be more than that.

because she'd stake him the minute he bit someone.

Although I'd really have to disagree with this. She proves that even when he stumbles and falls she won't take him out, and he still spends all of S3 hanging around her.

[lynnenne]

I wanted to say that. You said it much better.